The Statements of Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz

[lynn cates]

saving Jack

Hello. Your description is right on the money, I think.

Hence, if one wishes to "save Jack," one would have to posit an entirely different MO for him. No more pretending to be a punter looking for a quiet place. If Jack killed Liz (rather than a jealous ex-client), he would have had to sprung from the shadows. Did a PC testify that there was an unlocked privy thereabouts?

But now one would have to revert to "Well, Jack was under pressure--3 weeks, you know. He was desperate and in fear of the vigilance committee."

LC

[perrymason]

Hello. Your description is right on the money, I think.

Hence, if one wishes to "save Jack," one would have to posit an entirely different MO for him. No more pretending to be a punter looking for a quiet place. If Jack killed Liz (rather than a jealous ex-client), he would have had to sprung from the shadows. Did a PC testify that there was an unlocked privy thereabouts?

But now one would have to revert to "Well, Jack was under pressure--3 weeks, you know. He was desperate and in fear of the vigilance committee."

LC

The yard did have some hiding places, there was an unused stable in the yard, with offices above it that I understand had a broken lock on the doors, there was a privvy...but the hiding spots were in the rear of Dutfields Yard, forcing a killer staged there to head out across the yard and in front of the cottages and past the open kitchen door, with light from above out the window, and cast through curtains in the cottages...some cottagers stated they were awake at the time.

Could he hide behind the gate....sure. But before we contemplate that, why is Jack now hiding on private property when approx 30 men were still upstairs singing? Is that his MO...hide behind a gate that may well lead to his being discovered by someone like Eagle who tried the front door but had to use the yard entrance because it was locked....and if lucky and undiscovered, then just pounce on a stranger? I dont think either Polly or Annies circumstances warrant that conclusion, rather he likely acted as a client and talked with them. Went with them.

To keep the women as quiet as he apparently did, and to cut most of them while they lay still on their backs on the ground implies to me that he had very close access to them beforehand, maybe even touching her or holding when he strikes. Speedy bugger in that respect...I think he was as suspected, acting the part, and very close.

To me 2 key questions are ...Why would the man that killed Polly and Annie in almost identical fashion change MO? They were both successful kills, and in the opinion of the physician who inspected Annies wounds, he got what he wanted all along. So why now wait and pounce?

The second is.....would Jack the Ripper, based on what we can see in the C1 and C2 murders, commence a kill then mutilation without having some sense of surety that he could complete his task? Its likely he wanted Pollys uterus but was interrupted by Cross, based on the circumstances of the very next attributed murder and the striking similarities in the 2. Why would he risk another failure due to venue? Would he abort a kill...could he stop himself?

Too many variables, and too few reasons to look for anyone beyond a thug.

All the best mate

[lynn cates]

date

Hello. So we are back to Liz's date.

Given her eagerness, upbeat attitude, spiffy preparation, he must have been quite dapper.

Do you think he was someone recently met, at a pub, say?

LC

[perrymason]

Hello. So we are back to Liz's date.

Given her eagerness, upbeat attitude, spiffy preparation, he must have been quite dapper.

Do you think he was someone recently met, at a pub, say?

LC

Funnily enough for my money, its Eagle. I find it odd that he escorted his date home then returned to the club...the meeting had been over for an hour and a half by the time he enters the yard at 12:40am. I find it odd that a press report says that a member called Gilleman went upstairs to tell the members that a woman was found in the passageway terribly cut at 12:55am...and Eagle, a self professed coward in the face of blood, rushes "pell-mell" down the stairs to see the body. I find it odd that Liz should be at that particular location loitering...when she is for the lack of a better expression "dolled up" that night like meeting a date....and seemingly without an event to be dressed up for as of 12:35am, that we are aware of. I would imagine that few of the men in attendance would be well dressed, or even dressed cleanly...but a guest speaker would be.

Liz sometimes acted as maid for some Jewish families, Im not sure in which part of town, that night or the next was the beginning of a High Holiday I believe. Might this person be connected with one of these families? We know by Kidneys comments that Liz liked men. I doubt he was speaking of her "liking" being with clients....so I assume he was referring to her non-professional life. She is single only a few days, yet sounds like dressed for a date. Did she meet this new someone in that short a time, or is it possible that this was someone she had known when still with Kidney, and now was seeing openly. Might this new relationship blossoming have been the cause of the former one ending? Kidney had hit Liz on record before, the previous year I believe. Might he confront her if he heard he had been replaced by a Socialist European Jew? Wouldnt he try to pull her away from someone like that....might she pull back and fall while resisting...might he then help her to her feet, yell at a nosy Jewish man passing by, and then grab her by the upper arm and strongarm her into the yard for some "talking to"....might she take it too lightly thinking she had nothing really to fear from this man, and smart mouth a few words at him....might she be doing this while holding cashous she intended to have, still thinking about her date that should be out at any moment...might he poke her in the chest and warn her to not make a fool of him, might she tell him he does that just fine on his own, turn like a lady and attempt to leave the dark yard so he wont try anything rough in the streetlight....might he lose it and grab that scarf while pulling out a knife........

I can see that kind of event very easily here. The scenario above is Kidney as BSM, but it doesnt have to be. There may in fact have been no BSM. Schwartz's absence in the records of the Stride Inquest to me potentially signals something about him, coupled with his weak story and the co-incidental location and late hour....being just outside a European Jewish mens club on Meeting Night.... co-incidentally, when he himself is a European Jew.....if he was a club member, something that could be proven someday I suppose, then maybe there was no BSM,.....just a real pissed off anti-semite ex boyfriend of a woman the speaker was dating who accosted Liz in front of others in the yard itself? I think that may have happened, and Schwartz saw what he saw in the yard as he passed the 2 while heading towards the gates.

Sorry...just realized how long and self indulgent that was....but Im not altogether unhappy with the content...so Ill just shut up and say Best Regards LC.

[lynn cates]

Kidney

Hello. It's not self-indulgent; but, it does indulge me.

Eagle would work fine for a date. I presume he never divulged that item so as not to give a bad rep to the club? Possibly, so as not to incur any undue suspicion?

Now for the ex-boyfriend. Kidney was a rough so and so. That looks promising. The major problem I see is that he would most likely have been routinely interrogated by the Yard and I don't think a lout like Kidney could have held up.

(I remember a remark by the PC who located "Coram's knife" and he spoke about the answers he gave upon interrogation. My point is, SY had master interrogators. When they decided to ask question, they brought a good deal of psychological pressure to bear. I just don't see MK as having enough neuronal synapsing taking place to hold out.)

Would an ex-client do as well?

Cheers,
LC

[c.d.]

Hello. Your description is right on the money, I think.

Hence, if one wishes to "save Jack," one would have to posit an entirely different MO for him. No more pretending to be a punter looking for a quiet place. If Jack killed Liz (rather than a jealous ex-client), he would have had to sprung from the shadows. Did a PC testify that there was an unlocked privy thereabouts?

But now one would have to revert to "Well, Jack was under pressure--3 weeks, you know. He was desperate and in fear of the vigilance committee."

LC

Hi Lynn,

I think I missed something along the way here. Why would Jack have to spring from the shadows as opposed to pretending to be a client?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

clarification

Hello. Permit me to clarify. Mike's astute assumption was that Liz was not "turning tricks" that night. Recall she had already turned down a customer.

Now, if she were waiting for a date, and given the suddenness of her demise, it seems a fair assumption that her assailant was concealed--given her date were not also her assailant.

LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

We know that Liz was a prostitute. We don't know whether she was working or not that night. She might have started the evening with the intent of simply being on a date but beyond that we don't know what circumstances might have made her decide to engage in business. A no show date perhaps?

We also don't know whether or not the BS man was a would be customer nor do we know whether or not she turned him down.

I don't see how we can reach a conclusion that Jack had to have sprung from the shadows.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

swift

Hello. Of course, we are not sure that there was a BS man.

Liz's demeanour was, according to the eyewitness reports, very upbeat. Not at all like a "stood up woman." That tends to suggest she had not yet met her "date."

Now, we know that Liz was most likely coming out of the yard when attacked. (This, according to the coroner's account regarding body position.) We also know the attack was exceedingly swift. That suggests one of 2 strong possibilities.

1. She met her date at the door of the club and, within a few feet, he dispatched her or

2. He was hiding (probably up the yard) and came alongside her and attacked.

Of course, as with anything pertaining to the Whitechapel murders, it is speculative.

LC

[perrymason]

Hi gents,

Hows this for some more speculation....Eagle meets Liz when he arrives back at the club....(hasnt anyone wondered why Eagle, Lave and Fanny Mortimer do not see anyone near the gates at 12:40 and off and on from that point until 1am?)...at 12:40am. He takes her into the yard, and asks her to wait for him near the kitchen door...my guess is that he might have needed to collect his speakers pay for that nights meeting. He gets upstairs, has a few words with some of the men still singing and drinking, has a shot or two, and when Gilleman comes upstairs to tell everyone that a woman was found downstairs in the yard passage murdered, he bolts to his feet and scrambles downstairs.....not to see the body or the blood, as he states he had an aversion to such sights,..but maybe because when he left Liz alone there were no other females present in the yard and he just wanted to be sure it was Liz.

I think what happens then is damage control.

Cumulatively the data suggests that Liz was planning on meeting someone specific, not any client that walked by...and at that hour, I would imagine that would be a prearranged meeting time and place.

Yet its almost an hour before Liz is sighted in that specific area, by the gates. If she had a date why wouldnt she just show up when the meeting ended? Because he couldnt predict when precisely the meeting would end and told her to show up later than its ending because he also knew he'd have the date to take home first,....we only know the meeting ended between 11 and 11:30am. Right around the time the rain stopped.

Cheers Chaps.

[lynn cates]

ubi

Hello. I like the damage control aspect. Also, if no one saw Eagle and Liz, he would not need to divulge it.

So where does the assailant come from? Is he passing down Berner street and see her waiting in the yard? Is he already IN the yard, waiting for Eagle to go into the club?

LC

[perrymason]

Hello. I like the damage control aspect. Also, if no one saw Eagle and Liz, he would not need to divulge it.

So where does the assailant come from? Is he passing down Berner street and see her waiting in the yard? Is he already IN the yard, waiting for Eagle to go into the club?

LC

Hi Lynn,

The part I emboldened above is I believe one of the reasons to look at these fellas through other than rose colored glasses, they had the ability to construct details any way they liked because they were the only witnesses to them. Liz may have been cut as early as 12:50am by the estimates, or earlier, and that would provide them with 10 minutes until Diemshutz pulls in...at which point his horse shies from the people around the body, not the body itself...hes briefed...they all know this looks bad, particularly because they are European Jews at a time when most of the Senior Investigative team thought Jack was as well.

They have perhaps 10 minutes to figure things out, a few minutes to update Diemshutz, and a few minutes more before Spooner is led into the yard.

I think its important to state here that its my belief they felt that they needed to cover-up a murder....not that they intended to cover-up a Ripper act. If Kidney marches into the yard for Liz...maybe hes been watching her....and other members are there, smoking or talking, they would have known that this was a personal issue not a Ripper pickup of a stranger.

They needed a suspect off property....they get Schwartz....they needed to appear as if everyone onsite knew the yard was empty at the time of the murder,...they have Lave and Eagle....(who state they are in that yard at the same time yet neither sees anyone else)... and they needed to explain a discovery in a way that doesnt portray them taking more than 10 minutes to go for a cop...thats the Diemshutz entry.

All speculation...but to me far more probable than an atypical and aborted Ripper mutilation attempt, with a killer that is hiding behind a horse or cart until Diemshutz goes into the building...so he can dart out the gates.

The cloak....the Top Hat,...the Gladstone...the fog....the reckless and dangerous steps he takes......I believe thats the myth of Jack the Ripper. He never left a single clue anywhere..other than the apron section. But nothing of himself. And if the real Jack killed only a small number of women, he might be nothing like many have imagined.

Jack wasnt reckless and lucky...when he set out he set out to be successful, he most certainly was....he didnt have to cower behind a horse on any kill I would guess.

Best regards mate

[lynn cates]

Kidney

Hello. This is rather convincing. The only remaining problem is with Kidney as suspect. He, I think, is easily capable of the hot-headed murder of Liz. But I have combed his testimony at the inquest. It is just pure SILLY stuff. He had the jury in convulsions with his twitter. That seems dissonant with a recent kill.

Could it not be a client of Liz's who is starting to fall in love with her?

Thanks!

LC

[Victor]

They needed a suspect off property....they get Schwartz....they needed to appear as if everyone onsite knew the yard was empty at the time of the murder,...they have Lave and Eagle....(who state they are in that yard at the same time yet neither sees anyone else)... and they needed to explain a discovery in a way that doesnt portray them taking more than 10 minutes to go for a cop...thats the Diemshutz entry.

All speculation...but to me far more probable than an atypical and aborted Ripper mutilation attempt, with a killer that is hiding behind a horse or cart until Diemshutz goes into the building...so he can dart out the gates.

Mike,

This is all sounding a lot like a conspiracy theory, all the club members conspiring to divert attention away from the club.

Next you'll have a mysterious gunman on a grassy knoll...

KR,
Vic.

[caz]

Hi Vic,

And this is meant to be the simple and straightforward scenario that everyone has missed since Sept 30 1888...

What's wrong with a killer who was only human and therefore didn't manage a 100% success rate during his relatively brief hold over the district?

Love,

Caz
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