The Statements of Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz

[Sam Flynn]

That would be very nice, Nats. Thanks.

[perrymason]

Michael writes:

Liz is clearly not a Canonical, she is only categorized that way because of 2 reasons....1st, she is killed on a night that people are almost certain Jack the Ripper was out killing, and secondly, because an unsubstantiated supposition of an interruption somehow has become entrenched in her lore.

Since there is not one scrap of evidence with her murder alone that suggests anything of Jack the Ripper....somebody else killed her.


Clearly????...uh, I think not.

Not one scrap of evidence???? The fact that she was a prostitute and had her throat cut might lead one to think of Jacky boy for starters.

c.d.

cd,

I think youre confusing Jack the Ripper with anyone with a knife that cuts street women during 1888 and 1889. All these murders are unsolved murders and are only sub-grouped by Canonicals by opinions,....not official positions.

Meaning....on the case records themselves Jack doesnt exist. He exists in the minds of many investigators, and we can see how their thoughts are influenced by those ideas, but no 2 cases are linked by the evidence alone. There is no official "Jack" spree. His very existence is hearsay.

So Clearly, there was no "Jack the Ripper" evidence in Dutfields Yard.

Best regards

[Natalie Severn]

Oh do get off Michael.When the Yorkshire Ripper began his series of killings,the victims injuries were certainly linked and led back to him.
The killer who took Polly"s , Annie"s ,Kate"s ,in my view Liz and Mary"s lives , wrought similar injuries on each and in four of these cases they were injuries of an extraordinary type,never before seen in Whitechapel.They were linked in the view of those who examined them and saw them with their own eyes in 1888, just as the victims of the Yorkshire Ripper were in the 1970"s.

[Natalie Severn]

That would be very nice, Nats. Thanks.

I will make sure I bring it!

[perrymason]

Oh do get off Michael.When the Yorkshire Ripper began his series of killings,the victims injuries were certainly linked and led back to him.
The killer who took Polly"s , Annie"s ,Kate"s ,in my view Liz and Mary"s lives , wrought similar injuries on each and in four of these cases they were injuries of an extraordinary type,never before seen in Whitechapel.They were linked in the view of those who examined them and saw them with their own eyes in 1888, just as the victims of the Yorkshire Ripper were in the 1970"s.

Thats the set book on these events Natalie, I realize that. That you included Liz in the list that you say contains victims with "extraordinary injuries" was surprising to me. Thats not only unsupported in the physical evidence, its shown as inaccurate thinking when a Mr James Brown slits his wifes throat that same night. The Triple event contained 2 very common types of murders....people may consider her occupation when not being paid for cleaning rooms and the night she is killed on as credible evidence that she was likely killed by the same man as the one that killed in Mitre Square....however Wynn Baxter and Dr Phillips disagree that they were both by one man.

Liz may not have been soliciting, she had money for her bed and chose not to pay for it citing that she would not need it that night....actually, indefinitely...and she has a slit throat.

Thats far from done deal Natalie....they knew that when they added her, and we do now....the difference is that they HAD to have some explanation....and Jack was very handy at that time.

We can step back and I hope see things for what they are face value.

All the best Nats

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Michael,
I did qualify that statement by saying "at least 4 of the 5"-meaning Liz was a bit different.However I keep to the view that Liz Stride was a victim of the ripper.He appears to have begun that night by slitting liz"s throat.Possibly he was interrupted but maybe that was all he ever intended in the vicinity of this busy club.His next move being towards Mitre Square.In my view she was not killed by her partner,Michael Kidney.
Best
Norma

[perrymason]

When looking over some source materials that I have used as study guides for these crimes I discovered that there was a member of the club called Gilleman who ran upstairs to tell the remaining members upstairs singing that a woman has been found dead in the passage. One of the members who is present to hear this is Eagle....it was Gillemans announcement that instigated his "pell-mell tumble" down the stairs to see the body....though he claims he feared the sight of blood.

The source claims he said that happened at 12:55am. It also clearly states that he went upstairs to announce it.

Interesting if Eagles statement was the source for this information, having just arrived back at the club he would have naturally taken note of the time when he returned, he stated it was 12:40am. He also says the remaining members were upstairs singing....if the above account is true at least one of them, Gilleman, went downstairs and into the yard before Diemshutz said he arrives, and found Liz cut there.

Ive said many times Eagles account may have been tweaked to suggest the yard was empty, and his return after escorting a lady friend home might signal his return for a second "date" that night....one that may have been planned to be a sleep over ahead of time...so the young lady need not pay for her lodging house bed that night in advance....like Liz was able to, but didnt.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

quo vadis, Liz

Hello. I've just read the description of Liz's body placement again, and something is disturbing me. Her feet are about 3 yds inside the gate and her head is pointed away from the gate. The coroner indicates she was attacked suddenly, possibly by pulling on her scarf, and her throat cut--perhaps as she fell. (The candy in her left hand, of course, corroborates the swiftness theory.)

This feels like she was going OUT of the yard, not INTO it. Had she been going in, and then attacked, it would be natural to place the body down with feet in the other direction. So it looks like she was walking with some man, he being placed slightly to her right. She seems NOT to be expecting an attack (candy still in hand, and placid look on face).

Is it at all possible that she met a member at the side door, began walking with him out to the gate and street beyond, and THEN was attacked 3 yds before reaching the gate? This would fit with both body placement and the fact that her left carotid was cut (that would be next the wall of the club).

LC

[perrymason]

Hi Lynn,

Since its suggested that the killer may have grabbed her by her scarf, pulled back on it and twisted it, pulling her off balance, and he slid a knife across her throat as he dropped her, the position of her feet does suggest that they were in the direction she was going as compares with her head, which was in the opposite direction, towards the club.

I think she turned her back on a man she didnt expect would assault her and she was heading out the gate to be rid of him by exposing this discussion to public scrutiny and steetlights.

Who would she not think might harm her alone in the dark yard? A stranger....or someone she knew?

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

customer service

Hello. I think it was someone she knew.

Is there a relationship between her turned down man, BS man, and her eventual slayer? If they were 3 different men, they may all at least be different customers, or potentially so. It almost feels like she had "business to tend to" and so turned down a customer, brushed off BS man (with a scuffle--if Schwartz is correct) and now, could the awaited "Prince Charming" be someone else (maybe from the club) and not a nice person?

LC

[Sam Flynn]

Hello. I think it was someone she knew.

A possibility boosted, perhaps, by the fact that Stride had lived in the area south of Commercial Rd, St George-in-the-East, during the comparatively recent past. Devonshire Street, where she lived, was just under half a mile from Berner Street, and I have little doubt she'd have been very familiar with the area, if not the people.

[perrymason]

A possibility boosted, perhaps, by the fact that Stride had lived in the area south of Commercial Rd, St George-in-the-East, during the comparatively recent past. Devonshire Street, where she lived, was just under half a mile from Berner Street, and I have little doubt she'd have been very familiar with the area, if not the people.

She might have even met a nice Socialist Jew when she takes jobs acting as a maid or when serving dinner to nice Jewish families. Might have even had a date with one.

For me, if Israels absence in the Inquest transcripts does not infer negatively on his reliability as a witness,....BSM is likely Liz Strides killer. BSM could be anyone, including Kidney. He might have discovered she had a date with a Jew from that Club, and maybe that she had no plans to stay at her lodging house....until further notice. A anti-semite gentile with a bone to pick... specifically with Elizabeth Stride... makes the most sense to me here. I think that answers some key questions. including her seemingly casual attitude in the company of her killer just before she is killed....shown by the cashous she clutched in death.

I find Kidneys comments when referring to Liz seeing other men quite telling about him....."I think she liked me better than any other man"...to me that smacks of underlying denial and jealousy. Why did they break up? Because he hit her again like her had done in the past...or had she found another man?

Cheers Sam, Lynn, all..

[Sam Flynn]

She might have even met a nice Socialist Jew

Maybe, Mike - but there were plenty of residents of St George-in-the-East who were neither Jewish nor socialists. The majority, I'd have thought.

[lynn cates]

she likes men

Hello, Mike and Sam. 2 or 3 items look VERY like Liz had an important date with a nice guy that evening.

1. She was dressed nice.
2. She had made arrangements for a protracted leave.
3. She seemed QUITE happy.

A slight problem, however, is that she was "all over" a couple of guys--one of whom she was drinking with.

Any good theory to reconcile this? Perhaps she just likes men and they like her and they are "rejoicing" in her good news about a date with "Mr. Nice Guy"?

Perhaps they are former Johns/boyfriends? Is it possible that ALL the men she met from, say, 11:00 PM on, that night, were former Johns? This might even include BS man who may be a bit sour on account of her date with Mr. Nice guy.

LC

[perrymason]

Hello, Mike and Sam. 2 or 3 items look VERY like Liz had an important date with a nice guy that evening.

1. She was dressed nice.
2. She had made arrangements for a protracted leave.
3. She seemed QUITE happy.

A slight problem, however, is that she was "all over" a couple of guys--one of whom she was drinking with.

Any good theory to reconcile this? Perhaps she just likes men and they like her and they are "rejoicing" in her good news about a date with "Mr. Nice Guy"?

Perhaps they are former Johns/boyfriends? Is it possible that ALL the men she met from, say, 11:00 PM on, that night, were former Johns? This might even include BS man who may be a bit sour on account of her date with Mr. Nice guy.

LC

My guess is that Liz was exactly as you described, tidied up and looking forward to her evening. She had even attempted to use a borrowed lint brush on her skirt. She had placed some important bit of fabric with a lodgemate for safe keeping, and she had headed out. However, as you point out, what we know of her evening until at least 12:35am is that she was seen in the area with men but not seen entering an alley with any. She has flowers on her breast....I can easily believe that fresh flowers werent a huge selling feature on work nights for the men she would service on the streets. So until at least 12:35am there is nothing that would indicate that she had done yet what it appears she went out for that night. Which really adds up to a date that she expected would end with her having someplace to sleep...and in my opinion, a new man to sleep with.

We know she declined to pay for a bed she usually used, and that she stated she didnt know when she might be back. Her intentions were clearly a night out as a woman, not a whore.

Thats my take anyway.

Cheers LC