The Statements of Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz

[perrymason]

Richard writes:

"There is sketch of michael Kidney, and he certainly does not give an appearance of being broad shouldered.."

But that sketch, Richard, was depicting Kidney from the side! I would settle for sloping shoulders (if the artist was correct to begin with - it´s a drawing and not a photo), but sloping shoulders may be broad shoulders too.
That´s not to say that I favour Kidney for either the role as Strides killer or the Ripper, but we certainly cannot rule him out.

The best,
Fisherman

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

As I was going to say to Richard, some mens coats of the era had shoulder pads, as many if not most still do today.

To me the compelling features that suggest Kidney are things like the cashous. And the anti-semetism voiced right in front of a Jewish mens club....I could easily see Kidney being furious if Liz left him for a Socialist Jew, and based on his behavior in court, I could see him being of questionable mental stability.

Cheers FM, all.

[Tom_Wescott]

This Michael Kidney crap gets old. Yes, he was a rough chap who did not come across as a gent at the inquest. That does not make him a killer, particularly since all the circumstancial evidence we find points towards his exoneration.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

This Michael Kidney crap gets old. Yes, he was a rough chap who did not come across as a gent at the inquest. That does not make him a killer, particularly since all the circumstancial evidence we find points towards his exoneration.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Something has to account for the circumstantial evidence that suggests she was unaware of imminent danger....the cashous....and that would include she was alone with a lover, until earlier that same week anyway.

I think the Kidney scenario actually addresses some of the key circumstantial points....the cashous of course, an anti-semetic remark in front of a Jewish mens club that was still open, and Liz's uncharacteristic accouterments that night.....the flower, the cashous, and in the words of her lodgemate, her "good evening wear"....her not paying for the bed, but instead suggesting she wouldnt return there at all that night, with no date when she might return given, ...yes, Kidney's bizarre courtroom antics, and the delay in his coming forward.

Just because a song has been played before doesnt make it less worthy to play once again TW.

Cheers Tom

[c.d.]

This Michael Kidney crap gets old. Yes, he was a rough chap who did not come across as a gent at the inquest. That does not make him a killer, particularly since all the circumstancial evidence we find points towards his exoneration.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Not to mention C5 crap, GSG crap, Hutchinson crap (lots of that crap), McNaghten crap, Barnett and Mary crap...well, you get the picture. Dead horses everywhere. Maybe that accounts for all the crap.

Yet, we are all still hooked. Amazing, ain't it?

c.d.

[perrymason]

Sometimes you have to wade through whats been done yourself to see why something cannot be....and in the case of Kidney as Liz's killer, BSM or not....its very much on the table.

Liz is clearly not a Canonical, she is only categorized that way because of 2 reasons....1st, she is killed on a night that people are almost certain Jack the Ripper was out killing, and secondly, because an unsubstantiated supposition of an interruption somehow has become entrenched in her lore.

Since there is not one scrap of evidence with her murder alone that suggests anything of Jack the Ripper....somebody else killed her.

Any reason why Kidney cannot have been that guy?
Any reason why Liz is apparently waiting for someone like a date outside a Jewish mens club?
Reason for the breakup?
Return of Eagle minutes before she is cut?

Maybe all nothing...but considering Schwartzs conspicuous absence from the Inquest, his weak set-up story, the clubs reputation, and the fact that someone murdered on their property might all figure in here somehow.

Cheers.

[Sam Flynn]

Maybe all nothing...but considering Schwartzs conspicuous absence from the Inquest

His absence from newspaper reports of the inquest, to be 100% safe. The official inquest papers have not survived.

his weak set-up story

I don't see it as weak at all - in fact, its quirky little details point to its authenticity. If you're going to make up a cover story, you're not going to make the (easily checkable) claim that you'd visited a premise in Berner Street to make sure your wife had moved out... you're just going to say "I was just walking by on my way to Ellen Street", which is both simple and eminently feasible in itself.

the clubs reputation

... hosting guest speakers and sing-songs for down-trodden immigrants and printing socialist newspapers in Yiddish? I know that the London establishment may have frowned on socialists, but I don't see anything that went on at grotty little Dutfield's Yard to have been particularly worthy of a cover-up.

[perrymason]

... hosting guest speakers and sing-songs for down-trodden immigrants and printing socialist newspapers in Yiddish? I know that the London establishment may have frowned on socialists, but I don't see anything that went on at grotty little Dutfield's Yard to have been particularly worthy of a cover-up.

Hi Sam,

The club was referred to by a metro cop in an interview as a "anarchists" club, not a Socialist Club...and we know key witnesses for the Stride murder attack police in Dutfields Yard a few months later. They printed an anarchist publication onsite. These were men in their teens and twenties, not old yiddish men in grey beards. They typified the age and actions of anarchists...the meeting was to attract men to disciplines that were contrary to the politics of the nation. Marx would have loved these guys had he not died too soon.

They had reasons to appear law abiding, in my opinion, the club itself and the paper.....judging by an attendance that night of around 200...paying guests...might have some income to protect as well as reputations.

Israel Schwartz, a European Jew, says via his translator that he happened to be just outside the club after the meeting and while 28 or so men were singing upstairs, at 12:45am, to check to see if his wife had finished their accommodations move during the day. Being the swell guy he was he let his wife do all the work while he went to market. Its almost 13 hours later. His wife likely had to move some clothing, perhaps a stick of furniture.

I dont see the story the way you do Sam.

Cheers Gareth, all the best.

[Sam Flynn]

The club was referred to by a metro cop in an interview as a "anarchists" club

Indeed so... but it was hardly the headquarters of SMERSH.

I dont see the story the way you do Sam.

Very true, Mike.

[perrymason]

You know Sam, Ill bet if they had discovered that Israel Schwartz was actually affiliated with the club and that they still believed he saw something relevant...I believe they would still have to have him take the stand. A "major" witness being absent in the records of the Inquest....albeit..as you say, press records,...is something to take note of.

Im suggesting something occurred that made all the club witnesses worth scrutinizing, and that something could have toppled the club and its followers had it been perceived that the killer in the yard came from the club.

Israel insures that doesnt happen. And yet he is absent at the Inquest. That says something to me. The police thought at that time that Jack the Ripper was a Jew,...according to Anderson... Polish, Hungarian or Russian perhaps, and that he lived in the East End and was poor. That club was full of men that fit that profile.

Cheers Sam

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"all the circumstancial evidence we find points towards his exoneration"

1. "All" the circumstancial evidence we have would fit nicely in a matchbox.
2. ...and some of it points to Kidney being a worthy contender of the title as Stride´s killer.

...but we´ve been over this before!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

A "major" witness being absent in the records of the Inquest....albeit..as you say, press records,...is something to take note of.

The police had already demonstrated an arguable over-sensitivity to inflaming anti-semitic sentiment in their dealing with the Goulston Street Graffito. I wouldn't put it past them to have arranged for Schwartz, with his "strong Jewish appearance" - not to mention the reference to "Lipski" by Stride's ostensible murderer - to be dealt with sensitively.

Im suggesting something occurred that made all the club witnesses worth scrutinizing, and that something could have toppled the club and its followers had it been perceived that the killer in the yard came from the club.

If they were that concerned, why did two club members rush out almost immediately after Liz's body was discovered to summon the police?

Not that I imagine they'd have been bothered about being "toppled" in the first place - it's not as if they were planning world domination, and nor were they perceived as doing so. Outside Whitechapel, I'd be amazed if anyone had heard about them and their grotty back-street club. We must keep things in proportion, if we're to make any sense of this at all.

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
I dont understand why you have to repeatedly refer to this club in such a pejorative way.This working men"s club was one that was highly thought of at the time ,actually, by most of London"s left wing intelligensia,such as George Bernard Shaw,Eleanor Marx,William Morris etc.
Also by constantly referring to it as "grotty" are you therefore suggesting that its Jewish members were all "grotty" too"?

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
I dont understand why you have to repeatedly refer to this club in such a pejorative way.

Who's being pejorative? I'm just being realistic. It was a poky building, in one of the poorest districts in London.

Also by constantly referring to it as "grotty" are you therefore suggesting that its Jewish members were all "grotty" too"?

How insulting! Not happy. Not happy at all.


Edit: It's only just occurred to me that I'm listening to a recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony as I type - specifically the first movement, which sets Evgeny Yevtushenko's poem about the Babi Yar massacre to even more moving music. If you haven't heard of Babi Yar, Google it... and then dare to insinuate that I'd ever be discriminatory against working-class socialist Jews.

[c.d.]

Michael writes:

Liz is clearly not a Canonical, she is only categorized that way because of 2 reasons....1st, she is killed on a night that people are almost certain Jack the Ripper was out killing, and secondly, because an unsubstantiated supposition of an interruption somehow has become entrenched in her lore.

Since there is not one scrap of evidence with her murder alone that suggests anything of Jack the Ripper....somebody else killed her.


Clearly????...uh, I think not.

Not one scrap of evidence???? The fact that she was a prostitute and had her throat cut might lead one to think of Jacky boy for starters.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

Who's being pejorative? I'm just being realistic. It was a poky building, in one of the poorest districts in London.
How insulting! Not happy. Not happy at all.


Edit: It's only just occurred to me that I'm listening to a recording of Shostakovich's 13th Symphony as I type - specifically the first movement, which sets Evgeny Yevtushenko's poem about the Babi Yar massacre to even more moving music. If you haven't heard of Babi Yar, Google it... and then dare to insinuate that I'd ever be discriminatory against working-class socialist Jews.

I was puzzled by your constant refrain of it being a " grotty little club" Sam,thats all.It wasnt clear in your post whether you were referring to the Club"s premises or the club"s members,just that it was grotty. Its actually a great relief to me to know you were only referring to the venue.
I am delighted too to hear you speaking so passionately about this famous work of Yevtushenko"s as I am a great admirer of his .It may interest you to know that I have some words he once wrote to me about me in the front a book of his poems.He wrote them after talking to me for a little while after one of his poetry readings at the South bank. I will show you his words and the book of poems at the October conference if you are interested.

Best
Norma