Two

[Sam Flynn]

Hi, Sam, that's an interesting point, especially in light of how the police handled- or more accurately, obliterated- the Goulston Street Graffito.

But wasn't it already in the newspaper that the witness was Schwartz, a Hungarian Jew?

Surprisingly - or not, if my hunch is correct - the detail of his story actually didn't get all that much coverage, Arch. It was only, as I recall, really covered in the Star, and even then it doesn't mention the "L" word (i.e. the cry of "Lipski!") at all.

Do you think the police were just trying to take the focus off him, and off Jews in general?

I can well understand why they might have wanted to minimise the risk of too many Jewish resonances being picked up by the press... bearing in mind their reaction to the GSG.

[Archaic]

Thanks, Sam.

Cheers, Archaic

[perrymason]

Of course, the simple fact is that, much as you may wish you knew why Schwartz didn't appear at the inquest, you don't. No one does.

There are logically 3 explanations for his absence....1 is that he was deemed untrustworthy to certify by an appearance at a formal Inquest, and 2, he was so important that his story was suppressed and he is probably the Jewish witness that is called several times over coming years to identify suspects, not Lawende. 3 is that he withdrew his statement.

He would not be excused from testifying without a mention had he been scared. He would not have been excused for illness, without mention. He would not be excused for safety sake....as I said, they sequestered Lawende and could have done the same for him and his wife. He would not be excused due to employment, or family affairs.

This was an Inquest to determine if Liz Stride was a victim of a murder by accumulating all the pertinent data known to that point on a formal police record. Israel Schwartz, allegedly the Hungarian Jew witness who says he saw the victim assaulted within minutes of her estimated death cut is not mentioned...his story is not referenced, he is in fact completely absent from the proceedings....instead the records show that the police organized witness for 12:45am is James Brown, a street resident and not affiliated in any way with the club.

If you have evidence that either of the other 2 possibilities should be seriously considered, speak up. Love to hear about that evidence.

Cheers.

[Chris]

perrymason

However much you keep on trying to spin certainty out of thin air, the fact remains: we have absolutely no evidence as to why Schwartz didn't appear at the inquest.

[Sam Flynn]

However much you keep on trying to spin certainty out of thin air, the fact remains: we have absolutely no evidence as to why Schwartz didn't appear at the inquest.

Out of interest, does it say anywhere that Schwartz definitely didn't appear, or are we assuming he didn't because the press transcripts don't mention him?

Idle speculation, I know, but I wouldn't rule it out. If only the official Stride inquest papers had survived...

[Chris]

Out of interest, does it say anywhere that Schwartz definitely didn't appear, or are we assuming he didn't because the press transcripts don't mention him?

No, I don't think it does say anywhere that he didn't appear. Indeed, in one place Anderson writes of his having given evidence at the inquest. I assume that's an error, but that and the other later references to him in official documents should be weighed against the speculation that he didn't appear because his story had been discredited.

[Tom_Wescott]

Chris is correct in that we don't know and likely never will know why Schwartz didn't appear at the inquest. But I'd say we're past speculating that he might have appeared. Anderson never said that Schwartz appeared at the inquest. He mistakenly referred to Schwartz's evidence in Swanson's report as his inquest testimony, whereas we know from Swanson's own words that he was actually working from Abberline's written police report.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

Anderson never said that Schwartz appeared at the inquest.

What I said was that Anderson had written of Schwartz's having given evidence at the inquest. To be precise, he wrote:
"I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride's case ..."
[Draft letter to Home Office, 5 November; Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 142]

As I said, I assume that was an error, but nonetheless that is what Anderson wrote.

Anyhow, my point is that if Schwartz wasn't called to give evidence at the inquest because his story had been discredited, clearly Anderson knew nothing of it. Nor did Swanson, nor, apparently, did Abberline.

[Tom_Wescott]

Swanson and Anderson seemed to be relatively clueless about many things. Swanson seemed to have been completely unfamiliar with Schwartz prior to preparing his report on Oct. 17th. They were more familiar with Matthew Packer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Supe]

Chris,

To be fair, one can't state categorically that:
a) Schwartz was not asked to appear, or that,
b) he did not appear because his testimony had been discredited by then.
There are several plausible reasons other than being discredited why he did not appear.

Don.

[Tom_Wescott]

That is very true, Don.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

To be fair, one can't state categorically that:
a) Schwartz was not asked to appear, or that,
b) he did not appear because his testimony had been discredited by then.
There are several plausible reasons other than being discredited why he did not appear.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. We simply don't know why he didn't appear.

[perrymason]

Im astounded...sort of...that anyone would claim that Israels Inquest absence is anything but intentional and absolute.

I dont know why he wasnt chosen to attend and add his story to the official records proceedings, no one does...., I only suggested its probably because they didnt believe his story. He is not on those records even in passing or special mention. That means if they did as some of you seem to suggest, they withheld his testimony, then there must be a reason for that. Anyone have evidence of one? Anyone see Israel Schwartz's name ever crop up again in memos, file correspondence, or any of the records regarding the cases?

Its the most bleeding obvious answer. People get all hung up about some support in memorandum regarding Israel, forgetting I assume that similar memos included support for Hutchinson. Someone formally discredited.

The one that couldnt attend the Inquest as a witness because he wasnt registered as one until after it. Israel was and would have been compelled to appear had they reason to believe his story was vital. I believe he would have been legally strongarmed to do so.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Im astounded...sort of...that anyone would claim that Israels Inquest absence is anything but intentional and absolute.

I dont know why he wasnt chosen to attend and add his story to the official records proceedings, no one does...., I only suggested its probably because they didnt believe his story.

I suggested that it was possible that they DID believe his story, and that's why they didn't want it getting wider coverage than necessary. I can't see why that's any less likely, given the experience with the erasure of the GSG.

He is not on those records even in passing or special mention.

The records are, as we know, sadly incomplete, Mike. We don't even have the official transcript of Stride's inquest at our disposal anymore.

People get all hung up about some support in memorandum regarding Israel, forgetting I assume that similar memos included support for Hutchinson. Someone formally discredited.

All that survives of Hutchinson's file is a single paragraph in a routine report penned by Abberline. Unless I'm much mistaken, there are far more "memo-miles" about Schwartz's story in the surviving records than there are about Hutchinson's.

[Supe]

Sam,

I might add to your above post that as late as November there were still memoranda between the Met and the Home Office that strongly suggest Schwartz was had not been discredited. It would seem that when the facts don't fit some folks' obssessive theories they are simply discarded--not just in Ripperdom but everywhere.
Don.