Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Bridewell]

BS shouted Lipski, not Pipeman, it may be nothing but it's a bit odd that Schwartz didn't turn around and run off the way he came, rather than straight ahead passing in front of Pipeman, he had probably walked past BS before he had spotted him, thus was trapped between pipeman and BS.

Further to my last post: This is the wording in the Star's report:


"....but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings."

(I love the phrase, "fled incontinently". It sounds like a euphemism for something very unpleasant in the trouser department).

[Bridewell]

According to his police statement it was Broad-Shouldered Man who shouted "Lipski", but according to the version he gave to the Star it is the second man (not the first) who yells "a warning" (as opposed to "Lipski!" in the police statement).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm,

That's one of the reasons that I've maintained Pipeman was standing in front of the Nelson (on BS Man's side of the street) and not on the board school side. If you read Abberline's comments, Pipeman took off toward Schwartz first, causing Schwartz to bolt, so whatever direction Schwartz ran, it would have to be somewhere other than toward Pipeman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

BS shouted Lipski, not Pipeman, it may be nothing but it's a bit odd that Schwartz didn't turn around and run off the way he came, rather than straight ahead passing in front of Pipeman, he had probably walked past BS before he had spotted him, thus was trapped between pipeman and BS.

[Wickerman]

.. Probably Pipeman was enjoying a quiet drink, saw a woman under attack, and emerged with a knife to come to her rescue.

The beer shop on the corner, the Nelson, had supposedly closed at 9:00pm.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

I believe that the Ripper killed Stride, and that he was probably Broad-Shouldered man. I am not convinced, in any way, that Pipe-man was an accomplice. There is nothing anywhere else to suggest the involvement of an accomplice. There is some doubt over who shouted "Lipski" when Schwartz appeared. I think it was Pipeman. It is always assumed that the cry was to alert someone of Schwartz's presence, but there was at least one occasion when "Lipski" was shouted as an accusation of cowardice. There is nothing particularly sinister about Pipeman carrying a knife. It was a sensible (& legal) practise in a high crime area. Probably Pipeman was enjoying a quiet drink, saw a woman under attack, and emerged with a knife to come to her rescue.

If Schwartz mistook Pipeman for an accomplice, perhaps Pipeman thought the same of Schwartz and chased him off, accusing him of cowardice when he ran . Having seen all this, BS took his opportunity, quickly disposed of Stride (who might recognise him) and ran off himself before Pipeman's return. Having been seen with a knife in close proximity (time & place) to the murder, Pipeman made himself scarce when he saw what had happened.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

Perhaps he changed his clothes?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

YES, if he was sailor boy.... almost definitely, then he went home to change, because the other sailor boy back at Dutfields, is too old, short and fat, it could be him; but if so the copper was wrong in his description, highly unlikely.

the problem with Stride is, either BS or Pipeman could be Sailor boy seen with lawende..... 35 is too close to 30 and unfortunately too close to 40, but too far away from being 22.

the trouble with being 22 is, depending on your build and complexion, you can still look like only 19 and maybe about 26 max, now the average age is about 27 to 35, this weakens Toppy quite a lot, but if not; there's still a huge element of doubt.

it looks like BS and Pipeman are a team and it could also be, however far fetched, that LA DE DA and GH are a team too..... this would be the ultimate pi** take, whatever the case, GH on his own is good enough for me.

i'm highly suspicious of Sailor boy, because not only has JTR changed, it looks like he's altered his face too, but of course, JTR might not be either of these 2 idiots back at Dutfields.

i'm convinced that the chalk and the graffiti was supposed to be for Dutfields and killing Eddowes was due to the **** up he made earlier on.

his mistake was his inability to lure Stride up the road to mutilate her, she refused to leave the yard, as simple as that, he therefore settled for a quick kill only.

but so that the world knew that JTR was killing that night, he needed a mutilation, because Stride could be mistaken for another killer, more importantly, he needed us to know that this mutilation was linked to this earlier murder, so he left a Cryptic note with the apron piece too.

unfortunately Eddowes died, because JTR could not lure L.Stride up the road.

because Dutfields is the worst place to mutilate, but up the road is dead easy and JTR definitely knew this.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm,

Perhaps he changed his clothes?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

a 10 minute walk and a 45 min gap, well the walk is a very short distance indeed, but the time gap is massive !!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's only a 10 minute walk if he went directly to Mitre Sq., it's a 45 minute walk if he didn't.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

a 10 minute walk and a 45 min gap, well the walk is a very short distance indeed, but the time gap is massive !!!!!!!!!!!!!

what the hell was he doing for this missing 35 mins, from this we have to remove 10 mins, plus at least 5 more...... so this leaves us 20 mins not accounted for.

he walks there and then spends 20 mins hanging around, just waiting, until he suddenly detects Eddowes, i doubt it, try he walks around Whitechapel until he sees something interesting and then he waits!

i very much doubt that he waits anywhere, without seeing something that interests him first.

dont tell me he spent 35 mins chatting her up, he would either see Eddowes as soon as he arrived, or carry on by.

he probably went home to change, put the chalk into the other coat that he was going to wear, put on a red scalf and a sailors hat and finally left home, this would account for the missing 20 mins maybe!

why? he was seen too well in Berner st and couldn't risk another BS or PIPEMAN descripton !

.

[Bridewell]

I agree

Hello,
If one Knife murder a year is correct, Then the murder of Tabram must be considered more highly as a Ripper victim in that case. And does'nt the list of possible Ripper victims AFTER Kelly become more valid, or does it just suggest that murder was on the increase.

I have never argued with the suggestion that Martha Tabram's was a Ripper murder, but I think we're going off topic now.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi spyglass. You make a good point, and let me say that I wouldn't be surprised at all if at least one of the murders from 1888-1891 was a copycat murder, or otherwise influenced by the Ripper. Stride was not one of them, of course, but perhaps a later one, such as Coles. Hell, perhaps 5 of them. The irony is that the Ripper himself may have been a copycat killer to some extent, his inhibitions let loose from reading of the Smith and Tabram murders.

Caz,

Excellent point you made. Once again you take something many of us feel and find a way to put it into words.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[spyglass]

I think you're entirely right, Tom. The detectives involved at the time were convinced that Stride was a Ripper murder and never wavered in that opinion. As Donald Rumbelow points out, such murders were much less common than we suppose - about 1 per year prior to the Ripper's involvement. To argue for two in the space of an hour by two different individuals is stretching coincidence rather too far in my opinion.

Hello,
If one Knife murder a year is correct, Then the murder of Tabram must be considered more highly as a Ripper victim in that case. And does'nt the list of possible Ripper victims AFTER Kelly become more valid, or does it just suggest that murder was on the increase.

[lynn cates]

probability

Hello Caz. Tried to explain? Well, you HAVE explained. After all, to say that event X has a probability of occurrence of .01, means that event X has a probability of occurrence of .01.

Case closed. (Heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hello Bridewell.

"To argue for two in the space of an hour by two different individuals is stretching coincidence rather too far in my opinion."

I know what you mean. Of course, as I am sure you are aware, there were no fewer than 3 knife murders that night.

Cheers.
LC

Which makes it, as Colin Roberts and I have tried several times to explain, even less likely that the two Whitechapel murders that night were by two independent murderers - especially knowing that a very recently active killer (of Nichols and Chapman) was almost certainly responsible for Eddowes.

If an average night featured no active murderers, and a very unusual night featured one, it would already have been a very, very unusual night to feature two (the domestic and the repeat offender - the latter doing it twice in one night). So when you argue for three separate murderers (the domestic plus two others of uncertain nature and motive), you argue for a very, very, very unusual night indeed.

And that requires stronger evidence than has been put forward to date.

Love,

Caz
X