Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[John G]

I've just saw your post above, it's highly unlikely (if Mortimer was the catalyst for the killer to flee the scene) that she would not have noticed Stride and her killer. Go and have a look at how close Mortimer's front door was from the scene. There is a photograph of the IWMC here in Casebook.

It's possible that Mortimer came to her doorstep after Stride's throat had been cut. Her killer could then have retreated deeper into the yard. In fact, I would point out that the yard was cloaked in virtual pitch black darkness, as evidenced by the fact that Lave struggled to find the door to get back into the club.

And when Louis D first looked at the body, from point blank range, he originally thought it was just a bundle of rags. Mind you, on further inspection he concluded that it was his own wife!

[Observer]

In your scenario, where exactly are Stride and her killer situated, the moment Mortimer comes to her front door?

[Observer]

It's possible that Mortimer came to her doorstep after Stride's throat had been cut.

If that is the case how would the killer know that Mortimer was stood at her front door ?

[Joshua Rogan]

John,
I think the entrance to the yard was the darkest area, the yard itself being lit by light from the club's windows, so no need for the killer to retreat. He may have hidden in the toilets though!

Also, from memory, I don't think Louis ever said he thought it was his wife lying in the passage (although Kozebrodski seemed to get that impression) he said he went looking for his wife because she was of a nervous disposition, or words to that effect. But I think it was dark enough that he couldn't be sure it wasn't his wife.

[Observer]

John,
I think the entrance to the yard was the darkest area, the yard itself being lit by light from the club's windows, so no need to retreat. He may have hidden in the toilets though!

Make no bones about it, if there was any movement of individuals around the entrance to the yard, Mortimer, upon coming to her front door would have noticed them

[Robert St Devil]

If that is the case how would the killer know that Mortimer was stood at her front door ?

The story only seems to make more sense if Schwartz account was closer to 1a than 12:45. Do you think Mortimer is corroborating what James Brown saw? (Sorry, everytime i see that name, i think ,,heh! Step back, kiss myse)lf!,,

[Observer]

The story only seems to make more sense if Schwartz account was closer to 1a than 12:45. Do you think Mortimer is corroborating what James Brown saw? (Sorry, everytime i see that name, i think ,,heh! Step back, kiss myse)lf!,,

Sorry Robert, you've lost me, I'm failing to see the link between Mortimer and Brown. By the way are you "Living in America"

[Joshua Rogan]

Make no bones about it, if there was any movement of individuals around the entrance to the yard, Mortimer, upon coming to her front door would have noticed them

If anyone were moving in or out of the gates, Fanny was confident she would have seen them. But if the killer was already inside and in mid-slice when he heard her door being opened nearby, he could have frozen, or hidden, and waited until heard her door close again before venturing out.

[Observer]

If anyone were moving in or out of the gates, Fanny was confident she would have seen them. But if the killer was already inside and in mid-slice when he heard her door being opened nearby, he could have frozen, or hidden, and waited until heard her door close again before venturing out.

He would have heard her door opening mid slice, and then listened for it closing again, before fleeing the scene. Really? Highly unlikely in my opinion. However, , if that were the case, and I very much doubt it, surely, the killer would have been confident that Mortimer was oblivious to his presence. Why did he then fail to mutilate Liz Stride? Bear in mind the risk taken when mutilating Chapman. A risk taking killer no doubt about it.

[Robert St Devil]

Sorry Robert, you've lost me, I'm failing to see the link between Mortimer and Brown. By the way are you "Living in America"

I just remember her saying she saw a couple at the corner. James Brown saw a couple at the corner. The constable saw a couple. However their times conflict with Schwartz. That,s not to say he was lying. Just thinking his story makes more sense if it happened later than 12:45 and vloser to Diemschutz arrival. As a matter of fact, i am living in america and ,,i feel good!,,

[Observer]

I am in agreement with c.d. I believe Schwartz witnessed a mere altercation, a disgruntled drunk taking exception at being propositioned perhaps. The incident over in seconds. There's more than enough time for another individual to enter the scene, near to 1 a.m. that man being Jack The Ripper. I believe it was Deimshutz and his pony and trap who disturbed the killer

[Joshua Rogan]

He would have heard her door opening mid slice, and then listened for it closing again, before fleeing the scene. Really? Highly unlikely in my opinion. However, , if that were the case, and I very much doubt it, surely, the killer would have been confident that Mortimer was oblivious to his presence. Why did he then fail to mutilate Liz Stride? Bear in mind the risk taken when mutilating Chapman. A risk taking killer no doubt about it.

Unlikely I agree. However, if he did hear a door open, he may have then expected someone to walk past the gateway at any moment. And by the time he realised they weren't going to, the moment for mutilation had passed. But who knows? It's not my theory, I was just playing along with John G.

[Observer]

I just remember her saying she saw a couple at the corner. James Brown saw a couple at the corner. The constable saw a couple. However their times conflict with Schwartz. That,s not to say he was lying. Just thinking his story makes more sense if it happened later than 12:45 and vloser to Diemschutz arrival. As a matter of fact, i am living in america and ,,i feel good!,,

With regard to the Liz Stride slaying most of the timings when considering witness testimony conflict Robert.

Now, if you are a Michael Richards, this is a sure sign of conspiracy between certain witnesses. I believe all the witnesses told what they imagined was the truth. Reality is a different kettle of fish.

Regarding Mortimer, and Brown, I see where you're coming from now.

Were there witnesses on the street, at the time in question other than the ones we know about ? It's possible. It's possible there was another couple other than Stride and her killer on the street at the appropriate time. I'd say PC Smith saw Stride that night Brown perhaps not. I don't trust Mortimer, she actually stated that she had conversed with the couple who had been standing at the corner of the street. When did this conversation take place ? As far as I know they have never been identified.

With reference to Mortimer, I referred to the statement she made to the Evening News on the 1st of October.

By the way, if all the witnesses on the night of the double event witnessed Jack the Ripper, then it seems he owned more coats than James Brown hiself.

[Joshua Rogan]

I just remember her saying she saw a couple at the corner. James Brown saw a couple at the corner. The constable saw a couple. However their times conflict with Schwartz. That,s not to say he was lying. Just thinking his story makes more sense if it happened later than 12:45 and vloser to Diemschutz arrival. As a matter of fact, i am living in america and ,,i feel good!,,

I don't think Fanny ever claimed to actually see the couple herself, did she? From her words she could have met them afterwards at the scene of the murder and heard from them that they were there.

"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

Whether she saw them herself or not, it seems likely that this couple were the same couple that Brown claimed to see on Fairclough Street talking outside the school (which is on the corner). So you're right, they do corroborate one another in a way, but if the couple were both alive before and after the murder then they weren't Stride and the killer, but most probably Edward Spooner and sweetheart.

[Observer]

Unlikely I agree. However, if he did hear a door open, he may have then expected someone to walk past the gateway at any moment. And by the time he realised they weren't going to, the moment for mutilation had passed. But who knows? It's not my theory, I was just playing along with John G.

Yes I realise you were going along with John G Joshua, no problem. As an alternative to Mortimer scaring off the killer what about the killer being spooked by a noise emanating from the Club? In my opinion a much more likely scenario. Although as stated, I believe Deimshutz's arrival to have been the reason the killer was forced to flee the scene