Liz Stride: Why a Cut to the Throat?

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Surely the greater leap of faith is to posit the existence of another attacker when we've eyewitness evidence of an attacker already there, committing the attack at around the time the first doctor on the scene suggested she died?

1. Why does he kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?

He may have passed the point of no return with regard to his "urges", and if BS was the ripper, Stride was one less incriminating witness to identity him at some point in the future.

Why does he immediately go for a cut to her throat as opposed to slapping her around or stabbing her somewhere else on her body?

Probably to dispatch her as quickly as possible. PC Smith had passed the spot a few minutes earlier, and the killer may have feared the possibility of Schwartz and/or Pipeman alerting either him or another beat-patrolling policeman.

How does she manage to hold on to the cachous in her hand? Does that not indicate that she was taken by surprise?

No, precisely the opposite. If she was taken by surprise, blind instinct would have caused her to surrender the cachous, whereas if she was prepared for the attack, she would probably have clenched her fists in self defence.

5. Why were her clothes not in disarray? Wouldn't you expect that if there had been a struggle?
6. Why was her body laid neatly on the ground as opposed to being thrown down once he killed her?

It depends what you mean by "disarray". Even if her clothes had become crumpled in the attack, it wouldn't necessarily have shown up on dark material, and it's not as though creases and crumples are permament. I'd suggest that "thrown down" and "neatly laid down" are very difficult to distiniguish in instances where a body is discovered already in a supine position.

All the best,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

Hi there

It is worth noting that Michael Kidney appeared at the inquest, where he would surely have been noted by all the other witnesses to the Berner St affair, who would also have been milling around. According to the Sourcebook, Schwartz attended too !!!!

No-one recognised him in court.

[c.d.]

Good point, Jon.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Hi c.d!

Quiz time; love it! Here goes:

1. To my mind we are not dealing with Jack here; BS is a near aquaintance of Strides, as shown by his behavioural pattern. Therefore, there is no need to see BS as a man intent on killing from the outset. When it happens, it probably has a lot of spur of the moment to it, and the sudden rage that kills her is chilled down immediately by the strike. (Perhaps drunken) aggression is traded for sudden, sober insight.
2. There is no way to be sure of what he did, exactly, is there? The manhandling outside the gate seems to have left no obvious traces, just as her fall. He may well have at least pushed her about in the yard, before the knife was used. And if it was Kidney, then maybe he had the only intent of bringing her with him from a situation where he believed she was soliciting. Then, perhaps, she suddenly says something of which he is totally emotionally unprepared, "You´re out of my life" being a good bet - and that message sends a red curtain over his eyes...
3. If it´s a domestic quarrel, you do not bring strangers on the scene, do you? She probably thought she could handle him.
4. Yes, it does - and there is no need to believe she was not. When he struck, it could all have gone down very quickly, and she may have cramped her fingers around the cachous. There is a fair chance that neither of them knew that she was going to get killed two seconds before it actually happened! I only just noticed that Ben offers another explanation that seems very credible. The way I look at things, I´d say the fact that she had taken her cachous out strongly suggests that she did so in a situation where she felt "at home" so to speak. To bring them out before having sex with a punter would be inexplicable. After, perhaps, but before...?
5. No need for any major struggle here; I think that they went into the yard together much on her advice, to straighten things out. She would not have approved of the treatment he gave her outside the gates, and none of them would have wanted to display a domestic quarrel in public. The yard offered a possibility to get it overwith privately.
6. We don´t know that she was laid neatly down. We only know that Lambs testimony stated that it SEEMED that she had been laid gently down. And that impression would have been an obvious one, since she was lying in a position that resembled a snuggled up kid, sleeping safely; she lay in a fetal position, her face turned towards the wall, her right arm resting over her chest. It gave a perfectly placid impression, in all probability. The position, however, was less comfortable than it would have seemed, since she was resting on her left arm, something you don´t do since it is slightly painful. But the impression was there, nevertheless. And it could have come about as the result of a fall, though I believe that her killer probably lowered her, silencing the thud against the ground.
7. Because there may have been that time! We cannot account exactly for the minutes that passed after Schwartz left the scene, and that means that we cannot rule out that Jack/a travelling swiss circus/a crafty orangutang/a time-traveller/a Swedish besserwisser killed her. Well, since there are no Swedish besserwissers, we may perhaps rule that one out...

The best, c.d!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy writes:
"According to the Sourcebook, Schwartz attended too"

...and according to other sources, he did not. But I am the first one to admit that if Kidney did it, he would have been slightly shaky attending the inquest. There was no way that he could be sure that Schwartz would not turn up, and if Pipeman was not a Kidney aquaintance, the threat of him turning up would also have been there.
The way things stand, however, we may have to accept that Kidney may have had both the guts and the luck that it took.

The best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Hi c.d.,

If the BS man did in fact kill Liz, how do we explain that she managed to hold the cachous in her hand. Would an attack by him have come as a complete surprise?

Regarding the cachous, something ‘funny’ I’ve witnessed on a number of occasions is that when people fall while they’re holding something, they cling to it and manage to keep hold of it throughout the fall. Even drunk people can keep hold of a glass of beer when they’re so drunk that they fall.

Only this weekend something like that happened, too. A woman in front of me was walking down some narrow stairs when she slid. She was holding a camera but managed to hold on to it all the while sliding down the stairs on her bottom.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Hi all,

Working back from the end, the way Stride was found, and basing a scenario on the information still available to us, the way I see it is as follows.

Seeing that her feet were close(st) to the wall, Stride was standing or walking close to it, holding on to her packet of cachous at the moment she was attacked. The packet of cachous obviously suggest that at that point Stride was calm. Based on Dr Blackwell's opinion that Stride's killer took hold of her scarf, pulled her backwards and then cut her throat, my view is that she was facing the gates when this happened, possibly even walking towards them and away from the killer.

Because I think the pulling back and down from her left side is what actually made Stride rotate and end up on her left side, the killer either possibly stepping back a little and moving his pulling left hand towards his right knee or turning his body 90 degrees by putting his left foot behind his right (so that he was facing the wall) and that way pulling her down. The fact that only her left side was plastered with mud indicates she wasn't moved.

Her bonnet being found a few inches from her head supports Blackwell's view and that she wasn't laid down. On the other hand, the fact that no bruises or whatever were reported on her head, left shoulder or back suggests that she didn't fall freely to the ground, so it's quite possible the killer pulled her back, Stride first falling against him, after which he stepped back and then the last bit of her fall follows without causing any injuries. Or maybe she slided along his body to the ground. Such a movement would also account for the bonnet's location and the absence of any injuries to head, shoulder or back.

Whether he cut her throat at that point or immediately after she was completely on the ground is impossible to say, but the fact that the wound ended closer to her jaw than that it begun suggests a position somewhere at the top of her head or even above it (further away from the gates) rather than next to it, with one foot or knee on either side of her neck or something like that.

Here's a scenario that would work for me. Mr BS approaches Stride and they get into some fight. As Stride doesn't want to cause a further scene out on the street she doesn't scream loudly and doesn't continue screaming. After Schwartz and Mr PM leave the scene Stride is able to calm Mr BS down enough and they retreat just into the yard to talk about whatever they needed to talk about.

Stride is standing with her back to the wall, while he is facing her. At some point Stride wants to walk away, but he prevents her from doing so by pressing her shoulders against the wall, especially her right one, as she wants to turn towards the gates. Then, he finally lets her go. She feels good that she got out of this one and thinks she earns a cachou, so she pulls out her packet. But then her killer, in a fit of renewed anger, grabs her by the scarf from behind and the rest is history.

This scenario would answer a couple of the questions posed by c.d., but at the end of the day, it's just a scenario.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Some good observations there, Frank! Thanks for posting them.

I think that your suggestion that she would have been heading for the gates, walking away from her killer as he struck, is a sound one. It offers a credible scenario, especially if you theorize that she did so after having delivered the message that she was through with him. "I´ve had it, and I´m out of here!" sort of thing, she then demonstratively turns her back on him and walks away, fishing for her cachous as she leaves. Up til then, he may have felt that he stood a chance of keeping her, but as it becomes very clear to him that he was wrong on that point, he snaps. He grabs her scarf from behind, pulls her down in a spiraling movement to her left, and cuts her throat as she falls over and slumps down.
His grip on the scarf, the knot tightened by the pressure of Strides weight as she falls, slows the movement somewhat. Maybe she falls against her killer to some extent, just like you suggest. The bonnet flies of, and lands them inches from her head.

I see no need for a preceding fight. Such an occurence would have been loud enough to evoke the interest of the clubbers. And if Stride and BS man agreed to step into the yard for privacys sake, it would be strange to renew the fight from outside the gates. My guess is that there was a heated argument in low voices, no more. Thus no bruises and black eyes and such.

If this was what happened, we are faced with a clear-cut case of typical domestic violence, along the well-trodden path of "If I can´t have her, nobody else shall!" It is as tediously common a crime as serial murder is uncommon.
We have the witnessed row to go along with this suggestion, we have the lowered voice of Stride as she cried out, we have the indication that BS man tried to drag her away with him from the position outside the gates - and lo and behold: we have the woman dead a few minutes later.
I see no need, whatsoever, to request Jack on the scene. And I see no convincing evidence, whatsoever, that he was ever there. It all fits perfectly well without him, whereas it becomes a crime full of riddles WITH him.

The best, Frank, all!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Jon Guy writes:
"According to the Sourcebook, Schwartz attended too"

...and according to other sources, he did not. But I am the first one to admit that if Kidney did it, he would have been slightly shaky attending the inquest. There was no way that he could be sure that Schwartz would not turn up, and if Pipeman was not a Kidney aquaintance, the threat of him turning up would also have been there.
The way things stand, however, we may have to accept that Kidney may have had both the guts and the luck that it took.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman

I don`t have the Source Book to hand, but from memory, it was a piece from the Telegraph where Warren is commenting on the evidence given by Schwartz at the inquest.

Aside from his barnstorming appearances at the inquest, there were the contemporary illustrations in the newspapers, showing Kidney sporting a beard.

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon!

Think you´re slightly off the mark here. The high ranking officer that wrote that Schwartz was at the inquest was Anderson, not Warren. Maybe the latter commented on it in the Telegraph (if so, I have never seen that comment), but the original statement is Andersons. Moreover, he was in all probability wrong, since he had gotten the information from a report by Swanson, that did NOT hold any such information if I am correct.
The official Stride inquest records have not survived, so we are at a loss trying to establish in full what was said and by whom. But it has often been thrown forward that there may have been reasons explaining why Schwartz did not participate. One such was that he spoke no English, and the police already hade a sworn statement taken down.

As for the bearded Kidney, I have not seen the illustrations you are mentioning. Therefore there is no much use to delve further into the matter as it stands. Was it a long beard or a short one? Could you post the illustrations? The only illustration I have seen of him shows an unbearded man. As for the beard issue as a whole, Schwartz does not mention any such. But he does not deny it either; he does never state that the man was clean-shaven. What he does mention is a small, brown moustache (in the Star report, the size has gone lost, and the moustache is only described as "brown"). Of course, if there had been a beard, he had probably mentioned it - if it was not just the result of a few days without shaving.

Although I regard Kidney a very hot suspect in the role as BS man, I avoid pointing him out as the only contender for that title. The probable explanation if you are to go for a domestic scenario is of course that Kidney resented Strides leaving him, and killed her to ensure that she never became anybody else´s woman. But there is of course the opportunity to see it the other way around too; that Stride once more - as she had done before - decided to stay with Kidney, and that BS man was a lover that she suddenly scorned in favour of Michael Kidney. That would produce the exact same character of deed, whereas it would leave Kidney free to attend the inquest with no fear of being pointed out. If so, Schwartz may have been there, and Kidney may have been right in asserting that Stride never liked any other man better than she liked him. It´s either way here, of course. But I prefer to leave Jack out of the picture...

The best, Jon!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Fisherman

I`ll see if I can come back to you later with the Warren quote, and that picture, that or an apology !!

[Fisherman]

No need for any apologies, Jon, whichever way it goes and whatever you do!! Your input is appreciated, as always!

The best, Jon!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Since its been said all some do is focus on the throat wound, and its skill set being other than rare in Londons East End, when its clear that the absent elements are much more of a concern to me and many others, both can be placed upon the pile of circumstantial evidence that points from the traditional Jack the Ripper.

Not the least of which is where does this chappy emerge from..as of 12:40am 2 shortsighted men, one resident- one speaker at the meeting returning, are in the yard and see no-one. Not even each other. Liz has her altercation around 12:45 as witnessed by only Schwartz, so Liz is in front of the gates leading to an empty yard with a man that has semi-assaulted her...and he then what, tips his hat and apologizes and leaves? Or is he Jack..which allows for as much as 14 minutes alone with Liz? Or does he slip in to the yard from the club side door?

When people speak of compelling evidence to associate Jack with this kill, a single throat cut,...despite the circumstances of the yard, the people seen near that spot by someone, and her assault occurring 15 minutes before her death, just feet from that same spot, leaving her to fade to Black still in the company of a drunk man who let her fall...then it might seem a little wiser to hedge.

The reasons this killer has taken on some "other than human" quality is because of suggestions just like JtR in that scenario...having to emerge from nowhere to be in the picture at all. Unless hes Broad shouldered Man...almost as far fetched, as,... if he existed at all, he entered as a drunk weaving. Or is Jack also an actor too?

Ive heard far more ridiculous assertions of Jacks culpability, rather than his innocence.

My best regards all.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Well didn't Jack "emerge from nowhere" when he killed the other women?

c.d.

[paul emmett]

Hello, all.

The red rose Stride was wearing serves for some as a litmus test for witnesses like Smith, Brown, and Marshall, but I have never heard it talked about in reference to Scwartz. Was he asked about it? Has anyone pursued this? Does it/could it say anything about Scwartz's identifications?