Liz Stride: Why a Cut to the Throat?

[c.d.]

I was reading from the Stride inquest last night. I was struck by the description of the cut to her throat that killed her. I got the sense that it was meant to kill her and that it was delivered by someone who knew exactly how to do it so that she died.

If the BS man was her killer and his motivation was that he was turned down by Liz for whatever reason, why did he not just cuss her out and be on his way? Why didn't he slap her around and let it go at that? And if he did kill her in a fit of anger, why did he not stab her in the chest, abdomen or face? If that had been the case, I could then see a slash to the throat to kill her and eliminate the possibility that she could identify him but here we have him going immediately for her throat and knowing just how to do it.

Also, why does he kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the pipe man?

The impression I came away with was that the cut to her throat was deliberate and done by someone who had done it before.

Any thoughts?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

CD,

You're absolutely correct. And that's one of many reasons why most people, then and now, accept Stride as a Ripper victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hi cd,

A very succinct post by that new fellow Tom Wescott, but your questions and concerns are about Blotchy Mans likely connection with her death....when there are far more questions that arise when injecting a man not seen or heard that night, one who is a serial killer, and one that opens abdomens when he has minutes alone with a corpse...something that by Dr Blackwells estimates, is well within reason in Dutfields Yard that night..

I would think that to surmise only the Ripper could kill with a knife, or by cutting only the victims throat, makes the murder committed by Mr Brown that same "Double Murder night"... of his wife, by slitting her throat with a knife, a new possible Ripper crime as well I suppose.

So,... now its a Triple Play?

Perhaps some of the questions you ask about Broadshouldered Man you should also ask about The Ripper,..... there is ample reason to attach suspicion to Blotchy Man, as the last one see with Liz alive, and as one that had a witnessed physical altercation with the woman 15 minutes before she is found dead...feet away from that very altercation.

No one saw the "Phantom", and the yard itself was witnessed as being vacant by two separate people at 12:40am, so to insert the Ripper as her killer requires more than just the opinion of investigators who were caught without any evidence, once again....and not for the last time, on which to base the accusation that Liz was killed by Jack.

Perhaps "another woman has been murdered" shouted by Eagle gave them that ammo. Or perhaps they just got tired of admitting they had no idea who killed her, or the previous women.

If Jack killed Liz, he either cut her and left immediately...or cut her and stood there motionless for as little as 5 minutes before Diemshutz arrives...when in almost that same time frame he kills Kate, guts Kate, slices her face, takes her kidney out through her front, and a piece of her apron to boot and is gone.

My best regards cd.

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your response. It would have been a bad omen if my first post on the new boards went unanswered.

I am glad that we are in agreement. I don't know why the Liz was not killed by Jack camp automatically accepts that the automatic (and apparently normal) response to a perceived insult was to reach for one's trusty knife, cut deeply and expertly into the throat of the one delivering the slight and then go on your merry way.

c.d.

[sdreid]

I'm perplexed by those who want to strike Stride off the list but then turn around and want to add Tabram. Based on what?

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

I will respond to your main point which you make constantly while refusing to consider a very possible and quite plausible explanation to the contrary.

You are assuming that Jack was completely undisturbed during the time that he had alone with Liz. We simply don't know that. He might have heard a noise and thought someone was approaching and ducked back into the shadows. He might have just been plain spooked that night and lacked his regular confidence. Maybe it was a spur of the moment killing, one in which he hadn't planned for. There are just too many possibilities to make such a sweeping assumption.

By the way, I tried using the quote function but it wouldn't allow me to respond. I don't know if it is just me or if that is a problem for everyone.

c.d.

[sdreid]

By the way, I tried using the quote function but it wouldn't allow me to respond. I don't know if it is just me or if that is a problem for everyone..

I rarely use this function but just for a test.

[sdreid]

Actually, the Brown slaying reminds me some of Tabram. I wonder what Mr. B was doing that night.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't know why the Liz was not killed by Jack camp automatically accepts that the automatic (and apparently normal) response to a perceived insult was to reach for one's trusty knife, cut deeply and expertly into the throat of the one delivering the slight and then go on your merry way.

I wouldn't suggest that it was apparently "normal" behaviour either, CD, but throat-cutting wasn't exactly the rarest means of dispatching somebody. I'd argue strongly against the idea that it somehow takes "expertise" either - it requires a sharp knife. The depth of the wound (which in Stride's case was not quite as deep or as extensive as others in the Ripper series, it should be recalled) could just as easily depend on the force that was applied, rather than any particular skill.

[Tom_Wescott]

In Stride's case there's most certainly evidence of experience in the way the knife was used. There is no 'false starts' (i.e. superfluous cuts), which are found in almost all cases of domestic murder where a knife is used. While only the fringe of Ripperology still consider Michael Kidney as a serious suspect in Stride's murder, others have suggested that Stride was killed by a total stranger other than Jack the Ripper. This is not impossible, but it pales in comparison to the likelihood that Jack the Ripper was her killer. He meets the qualifications as dictated by the crime, he was in the area at that time and he was in murder mode. It's not rocket science.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

In Stride's case there's most certainly evidence of experience in the way the knife was used. There is no 'false starts' (i.e. superfluous cuts), which are found in almost all cases of domestic murder where a knife is used.

Beginner's luck, Tom? We can't rule it out, I feel. If experience was indeed in evidence, then there were quite a few slaughtermen, butchers and soldiers - not to mention home-grown thugs - in the area who would have possessed the requisite skills.

[Tom_Wescott]

The Sam Flynn Manifesto

Luck? It's not a question of 'ruling it out', it's a question of why it should be ruled in in the first place. In theory it's possible that OJ Simpson will master time travel in 5 years and travel back in time to kill a random prostitute, who happens to be Stride, leaving us baffled 120 years later. Just because it's possible doesn't make it a valid alternative to a conclusion supported by a weight of evidence - circumstancial though it may be.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Luck? It's not a question of 'ruling it out', it's a question of why it should be ruled in in the first place.

I'm ruling it in, Tom - of course a good, strong lad could whiz a sharp knife across a woman's throat and mortally wound her with a single cut. Besides... butcher, sailor, soldier, shochet, knacker, thug... take your pick. It was not necessary to have served a "serial killer's apprenticeship" to have been able to inflict that wound, whichever way you - erm - "slice" it.

I have no "manifesto" or agenda here.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sam,

With all due respect to you and your server crashing greenies, you're isolating one single facet of the murder of Stride (her neck wound) and arguing that a lad just walked up and sliced her and down she goes. This doesn't take into account the other facets of the case. And it simply doesn't make sense that a strong lad who never used a knife before (but had a very sharp one on him at 1am) would decide on the spur of the moment to commit murder. Doesn't make any sense. That's why most researchers conclude that if Jack didn't kill her it had to be a domestic murder, ie Kidney. And with the argument against Kidney DOA, that leaves Jack as far and away the most likely suspect in the case of Stride. Is it obviously not an ascertained fact any more than it is in the case of the other women. But working from likelihood, as we must in the case of any unsolved series of crimes, Stride's firmly in the mix.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I have no "manifesto" or agenda here.

I know that. I just think manifesto is a funny word and wanted to use it. We have 'The Diary of Jack the Ripper' so why not 'The Sam Flynn Manifesto'?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott