Those Damned Cachous

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

If it was suspicious to the police that Liz was killed in the passageway next to the club, how much more suspicious would it be that Mary was killed inside of Millers Court? You would therefore expect that every single resident of the court would become an instant suspect yet that seems not to have happened. If the police believed (gasp!) that Liz was an unfortunate, it would be reasonable to believe she led her killer to the spot where she was killed which just happened to be next to the club. So again, no reason for Schwartz and a made up story.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

psychological factors

Hello CD. Thanks.

I agree about the "need." But we must not conflate facts with psychological factors. Please to recall that the club members were given a good going-over by the coppers. Not the sort of thing to foster a sense of well-being.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Do we know historically that the club EVER hired security people?

Cheers.
LC

I do know Lynn that on the night she was murdered Morris was supposed to have been the guest speaker, not Eagle, and the reason for cancelling Morris was concerns over the security onsite...it seems threats were made to disrupt Morris's speech.

I am hypothesizing that they may have hired security for that reason.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

If it was suspicious to the police that Liz was killed in the passageway next to the club, how much more suspicious would it be that Mary was killed inside of Millers Court? You would therefore expect that every single resident of the court would become an instant suspect yet that seems not to have happened. If the police believed (gasp!) that Liz was an unfortunate, it would be reasonable to believe she led her killer to the spot where she was killed which just happened to be next to the club. So again, no reason for Schwartz and a made up story.

c.d.

Many of the court residents were women cd, and a few couples...but there was no man in that court that would have matched to the letter the profile of the man they sought in connection with the earlier murders, that being a man of European decent who immigrated to London. Probably Polish or Russian. The club had many members onsite who would match that general description....and the suspect profile I mentioned was at that time, the accepted one by the police. It seems after the Double Event everything that was learned about the killer from 2 very similar murders previous changes......why was that do you think? Because to group those 2 murders with the previous ones meant they had to reconfigure the profile to include simple murders and sloppy cutting.

Again though, you seem to miss the point on how these club members were perceived by the police...as anarchists. They would have been delighted to have a good reason to shut them down.

They were benefited greatly by the story Israel gave, whether you think they provided it intentionally or whether Israel was just a concerned citizen, you surely cannot deny that fact.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day

And evidence is people were not permitted to leave McCarthy's till 5:30 one can only imagine that every one of them was questioned before they were allowed to leave, with some detailed follow up on their stories afterwards.

GUT

[lynn cates]

Feigenbaum

Hello Mike. Thanks.

But surely Bernie Feigenbaum was a big name too? Yet he went on.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks.
But surely Bernie Feigenbaum was a big name too? Yet he went on.

Cheers.
LC

Perhaps the issue isnt dimenision Lynn, but rather contention. Im not familiar with Feigenbaum's politics, but Morris's made him a controversial figure...hence the threats. I dont recall reading that anyone was objecting to what someone else might be discussing as well.

[caz]

Hi All,

On my last visit to this thread I wrote:

All Jack had to do was wander the streets with a very sharp knife and take his chances with any woman who appeared to be on her own and vulnerable.

In response, Michael Richards unaccountably wrote:

It would seem Caz that you are drawn to the solicitation theory as moth to flame, youre default explanation for her appearance and the cashous and the flowers is that some prostitutes like to look pretty for their customers...

...I keep wondering why you insist on her motivations for being there...

Where, Mike, have I ever insisted Stride went to the club looking for customers to service sexually? You are the one who is obsessed with sex for money, and you are the one who claims to know more about Stride's motivations than I have ever claimed to know. You are the one insisting she hadn't been plying her old trade that night (or had never plied it).

...She is killed while on their property, and since the last reliable sighting of her is PC Smith, she could have gone into the passageway, or to use the loo as you suggest, just after 12:35.

That's better. I suggested she may have headed to the club after the pubs had shut because she knew she could spend a penny there. That has nothing to do with 'street prostitutes' and their personal habits, on which subject I sincerely trust we are equally ignorant:

Do street prostitutes of the day generally use, without permission...since no-one at the club saw her alive apparently... private facilities on private property, or are they more likely to seek out public facilities or squat in a dark alley if need be.

I have no idea, Mike. Not sure what your point is, since my suggestion that she may have gone there to relieve herself did not include the compulsory relieving of anyone else, sexually or otherwise.

Have you considered that at work "among the jews" allows for an interpretation that she was getting work from a number of jews, perhaps a group or organization comprised of jews? Isnt a Jewish club that would be in dire need of cleaning after a large meeting a suitable candidate for a scenario like that?

Yes, I've considered she may have told the truth about this (when she wasn't lying her head off about other things, like taking advantage of that terrible Princess Alice tragedy). But your own fixation with her flower, cachous and "best ankle-length evening frock" would seem to argue against any dire need or desire on her part to get scrubbing after the meeting. What happened to the idea that she had dolled herself up - hardly appropriate for charwoman duties - in readiness for a hot date with a club member? Granted, he either had to be ungallant enough to make her wait outside on her own, with a murderer on the loose, or ungallant enough to murder her himself in cold blood. So pretty much a wasted effort to look nice for him.

Since the evidence indicates that Liz had been employed doing charwoman duties more recently than we have any indication she had been soliciting on the streets...(by the way, ever seen a story about Liz caught soliciting in the East End?)....and since we have her own words that she was employed by Jews for her most recent work history, wouldn't it be irresponsible to the investigation to not factor those elements into the equation, since she is killed while on the private property of Jews that had immediate cleaning needs?

You do talk drivel, Mike. 'Irresponsible' to whose 'investigation'? You investigate what you like and how you like; I will continue to consider all the options - within reason. You want to strip the 'equation' of certain options and replace them with others that often make a lot less sense. For instance, if Stride really was taking herself to the club in her Sunday best, to offer nocturnal cleaning services (by candlelight?), it would have been on the off-chance, not a promise of work, or her prospective employers would have been quick to point that out, to quash the false rumours that she was there for immoral purposes. If not for the club's sake, they'd surely have put the record straight for the sake of their poor 'innocent' cleaning lady.

Love,

Caz
X

[curious4]

The rest of the time

If Liz had a date with a club member (unlikely, as it seemed to be in many ways a family club - a newspaper sketch shows women and children sitting on benches - also one of the members, when asked if there was dancing, replied "it was not a dance night", implying that debates were only one part of the club's activities) if she had a date there and then, what was she doing for the hours between leaving the lodging house (all dolled up, but minus flower and cachous)? Wandering the streets in search of the last-mentioned perhaps?

Cheers,
C4

[caz]

Come to think of it, not one of Stride's recent Jewish employers could apparently find it within themselves to provide any kind of character reference for her in death - just something to undermine the belief that she was just another unfortunate, like Nichols and Chapman, who had picked the wrong man to accost.

If she had done a half decent job for them, and had come across as a respectable working woman in the weeks leading up to her murder, would these other employers not have felt any responsibility at all, not the slightest pang of conscience, to speak up about it, given the undoubted reluctance shown by other associates of the victims to speak ill of the dead?

If nothing else, it would have been obstructing the police not to give them information about Stride's recent work places and any men she associated with there. But then, that's right up Mike's street, to accuse people in the Stride case of obstructing the police. So the more the merrier I guess.

Love,

Caz
X

[Lechmere]

A date with a club member?
How post modern.

[MrBarnett]

...or with an ex local who thought the passing of the years would afford him some anonymity, but at the last minute got cold feet and scarpered...

[Lechmere]

Or an ex-reasonably local who was in the area, say visiting relatives, and got the urge almost unexpectedly. Or perhaps something had driven him to anger and into one of his moods that he had not anticipated when he went out earlier that night. Then he was disturbed - as seems to be the case anyway - and didn't hang about. And was annoyed at being thwarted by a Jew from completing his attack and being put to the inconvenience and risk of attacking and killing again on the same night.

Or a local (not too mad) Jewish man who lived very close and who couldn't stop himself from killing virtually on his own doorstep and who then went and killed again when disturbed and had to return home through his first crime scene.

Or any other scenario other than Liz Stride going on a date with a Jewish anarchist.

[Errata]

If she was waiting for someone at the club, or waiting to do something at the club, why wasn't she inside the club? They all had little parlors or mud rooms for people to wait in.

[Lechmere]

The idea that Liz Stride was waiting for her ‘date’ outside a Jewish anarchist club at 12.45 am is faintly ludicrous.
Where were they going to go?
Jump a cab up West to get last orders in the Alhambra perhaps?
Or go somewhere closer to home, like the Pavilion or the Foresters?
Or perhaps back to his lodgings where he could help Liz brush up on her Yiddish so she could communicate more effectively with Mrs Lipschitz while ironing her curtains.