Those Damned Cachous

[c.d.]

I'm afraid you can't make assumptions like that, CD. It might well have been the most natural defence mechanism in the world for a vulnerable women to resort to in such a predicament; beating the attacker off with clenched fists and obvious futility. It's not as though we have much data on precisely how "close" the range was.

Best regards,
Ben

I can only lead the horses to the water, Ben. I can't make them drink.

c.d.

[perrymason]

I think human reflex address why Liz would still have cashous in her hand if she had them when attached.

Her scarf is twisted...and nicked. Its likely used to choke her briefly from behind. If the scarf was grabbed and tightened around her throat rapidly, her hands would fly to her throat...and at least one wouldnt open because it had something being held in it. In 2 seconds she is down and cut...maybe less. The cashous only represent her being unaware of imminent attack....and the fact they are in her hand is reflex.

Brief example from my life... when I was a kid we had a Dentist that was a sadist...no freezing for anything, used to choke you with one hand to keep your head still...my sister had finger marks on her throat once so we finally ditched him.....I only wanted to keep going cause he was the dentist of our NHL Hockey team and I got signed stuff from him.

Anyway, one time he is doing a cavity without freezing, and I got fidgety, and he pressed his hand on my throat and pushed it back in the chair, choking me. My hands flew to his hand without thinking, prying at his fingers...I might have been 8 or 9... He told me he wouldnt stop unless I dropped my hands.....and do you think I could? No way....your being choked, you try and stop that above all else...you cannot help but do so.

Her hand flew up with cashous clenched in it. Thats all I see.

Best regards all

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

How could Liz be unaware of an imminent attack if she had been thrown to the ground previously? Is she thinking "surely this man who has just viciously thrown me to the ground moments ago means me no further harm?" I just can't see how she is caught off guard under those circumstances.

As for being choked, you can't pull someone hands from your throat with your hands clenched. It requires that your hands be open. In which case, the cachous would have dropped out.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

1. How could Liz be unaware of an imminent attack if she had been thrown to the ground previously? Is she thinking "surely this man who has just viciously thrown me to the ground moments ago means me no further harm?" I just can't see how she is caught off guard under those circumstances.

2. As for being choked, you can't pull someone hands from your throat with your hands clenched. It requires that your hands be open. In which case, the cachous would have dropped out.

c.d.

Hi cd,

What happened between Liz and Broadshouldered Man, if it occurred, was not an assault. The man was seen to try and pull the woman to the street, not into the shadows or the yard, for one. Secondly, she likely falls based on his or her grip...one pulling, one resisting, one grip slips....the weakest one falls. And again, the man is seen by Schwartz....if at all...helping the woman up...its when "Lipksi" is shouted at him. It seems apparent that at this point, she isnt holding cashous. But she has had a fright of sorts, she would be brushing down her skirt, slightly ruffled, likely annoyed. And if she is waiting for a particular man, cashous might just be representative of her "freshening" after an altercation with a drunk man, and in preparation for the "dates" arrival.

If you consider that Eagle walked his date home, then returned at 12:40, and Liz may be cut as early as 12:46am...one wonders if he might be returning for Liz, sees her by the gate, and tells her he is just popping inside to get his speech fee for the night. That might explain why she might think the "date" will be out soon...and why she might have a cashous after an altercation.

On the throat, I think I made my point badly or you missed it....if she is clutching something when suddenly choked from behind, reflexively her hands will go to the throat, but the one with the cashous would have reflexively clenched as the hand muscles were engaged at the time holding them. A loose empty hand would fly to the throat and claw at the hand or ligature...but one that is holding cashous, maybe in other cases, cigarettes or a scarf, or lipstick....that would clench its contents and move towards the throat in one seamless milisecond. Why she never does drop them is likely due to the overall timing here...this may have taken 2 seconds.

Your hand goes straight for the source of the air cutoff much faster in reflexive defense than your brain can register your are still holding something and need to release it. Its panic..and not a conscious action.

Best regards cd.

[dixon9]

maybe a silly thought,but if Liz was a victim of 'Jack' could he have put the cachous in her hand after killing her? He did like to arrange things around some of the victims.Just a thought,please dont be to hard on me.

Dixon9
still learning

[lynn cates]

bystanders

Hello Dixon. I could not be hard on you unless I were hard on myself. For I daresay that thought has occurred to many of us--it has occurred to me.

I presume the greatest difficulty attaching to this scenario lies in motive. In effect, we are asked to believe that Jack had time to insert the cachous (as a red herring?) into Liz's hand and yet had not time for what may have been his primary aim--mutilation.

Has anyone considered a bystander? Upon what motive? Notice that it MIGHT be significant if she had them in hand, dropped them in the scuffle, and a bystander innocently replaced them (so that police might include them with her property?). Far fetched? Alas so.

The best.
LC

[dixon9]

thanks lynn

yep the motive is the stumbling block along with if him being disturbed,i doubt if he would have thought,i know i put some cachous in her hand.

Dixon9
still learning

[DVV]

Hi all...

From DeSalvo confessions (my rough and clumsy translation from French):

"I tie her hands with a scarf. At that moment, I notice that she holds a little knife. She already had it while we were discussing in the kitchen, probably to prepare her dinner. I think that, just like me, she had forggotten that she was still holding it. (...) Once she's dead, I take the sweater off to look at her. Her eyes are wide open...She is still holding the little knife in her fingers..."

Amitiés all

[j.r-ahde]

Hello David!

I have to say; a bit creepy...

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

Hi Jukka,

a bit creepy, yes.

But it makes the cachous "less damned", don't you think ?

Amitiés,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello David!

Yes, sure...

Merci beaucoup!

All the best
Jukka

[curious]

Hi all...

From DeSalvo confessions (my rough and clumsy translation from French):

"I tie her hands with a scarf. At that moment, I notice that she holds a little knife. She already had it while we were discussing in the kitchen, probably to prepare her dinner. I think that, just like me, she had forggotten that she was still holding it. (...) Once she's dead, I take the sweater off to look at her. Her eyes are wide open...She is still holding the little knife in her fingers..."

Amitiés all

Hello, All,
Happy new year!

I'm resurrecting this thread because I've run across a recent murder where the victim had retained something in his hands.

Two newlyweds, Elytte and Miranda Barbour, 22 and 18 respectively, just wanted to kill someone together and used craigslist to lure men who wanted "companionship."

The murder took place near Philadelphia, PA, USA.

The whole story updated 7:32 PM EST, Sun December 8, 2013 is here:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/08/justice/craigslist-thrill-killing/index.html

The pertinent quote: LaFerrara's face was purple. He had his keys in his hand. And there was blood everywhere.

Perhaps victims continuing to hold items in their hands is not as unusual as we perhaps think?

curious

[c.d.]

When I first saw this thread today I thought hey that sounds familiar. It turns out that I started it way back in April of 2009. Wow. Rereading some of the posts I realized that a lot of people have come and gone on these boards.

My original intention still seems to get lost in the discussion of the Stride murder. My fascination with the cachous does not lie in the fact that she was still gripping them in death. To me, the more important question is when she took them out.To me, that is the key to ruling out the B.S. man as her killer. In other words, rather than try to determine how she was able to clench them in death, I think the more important question is how they managed to survive Liz being thrown to the ground and her attempt to regain her feet as well as presumably fighting off the B.S. man if he was dragging her back into the yard.

At the inquest, Dr. Phillips expressed his opinion. The foreman of the inquest and Dr. Phillips had the following exchange:

The Foreman: Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?

Dr. Phillips: That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

My conclusion is that she did not have the cachous in her hand when thrown to the ground by the B.S. man but took them out later after he had left.

Nice to see an old thread get new life.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

My conclusion is that she did not have the cachous in her hand when thrown to the ground by the B.S. man but took them out later after he had left.

That is also my interpretation, but this implies Stride was involved in two separate encounters.
So how did she end up with cachous in her hand?

Did BS-man attempt to calm her down by giving her cachous, which then begs the question, why would HE have cachous on him?

Did Stride have them in her pocket, or up her sleeve, and pull them out herself.
(No suggestion by doctors that she had eaten cachous that night)

Or, did BS-man leave and Stride met up with another man passing the alley, who gave her the cachous?

I think the cachous belonged to Stride, these 'sweets' (to sweeten the breath?) are typically a female thing. But, she was killed by someone before she had time to take one.

[c.d.]

Hello Wickerman,

I think Liz was involved in two separate encounters.

If the B.S. man gave her the cachous after the attack (if that is what is was which I doubt), it would indicate that the attack was not that serious if she could be appeased by some breath mints.

Could cachous be detected in the stomach since they are not really eaten but simply sucked upon?

I think she had them in her pocket. Although it is possible, I just can't see why she would have them in her sleeve. It's not like they were a knife and she wanted to have immediate access to them. Why risk having them fall out of her sleeve when it would be a simple matter to simply reach in her pocket to get them out?

c.d.