Those Damned Cachous

[Malcolm X]

also this is worth mentioning, Stride was wearing almost jet black clothing, so Goldstein would've been even less likely to see her lying on the ground, but unfortunately this works the other way too, less likely to see her alive in the yard...damn it, sod and damn it

but i can maybe counter this, with some of the blood being congealed, pushing her murder back to 12.48...but if so then not JTR, it looks like either BS or Pipeman.

[perrymason]

Every once in a while common sense has to take precedence over conflicting descriptions....and a reasonable story is that BSM approached Liz on the street from her left side while she was on the sidewalk, grabbed her and kept going in the same direction, she resists, pulls back.. he lets go, then she falls. And makes an exclamation.Which is probably why Schwartz looked back...he had passed them by then,...and probably why BSM is ticked off at him..."mind yer own damn business Lipski".

Seems reasonable to me.

Ok, ....so what happens if Schwartz's story is removed altogether? Like the story that comes out at the Inquest without him.

Then we dont have an "outside" man interact with her, and she still isnt seen by Fanny, but is still killed on Club Property...by Blackwell, by 12:56am. Im sticking to the minute on this because he was specific...he had a watch, and Im sure was capable of assessing the wound based on the brief interval between the cut and his arrival at 1:16am. Comparatively speaking, presiding over a victim cut less than 1/2 hour earlier is a great break for a medical man, and likely this wouldnt have been so fast if we hadnt had a Jacky running round the area lately.

Im thinking its time to address an evening devoid of Schwartz. You'll quickly see how the overall picture immediately shifts attention to the club and that yard.

Best regards all

[perrymason]

The only difference in status between Israel Schwartz and George Hutchinson is that George may have corroboration with Sarah's Wideawake Man, otherwise the only person that can vouch for them is themselves.

And neither story appears in the respective Inquests.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

C d asks:

"Would she have been caught off guard if her killer was the BS man?"

I believe so. And I believe we need to keep two things in mind:

1. The "assault" may have amounted to no more than a failed attempt to pull Liz along with him, resulting in her falling as he lost his grip.
2. He may - and to my mind, in all probability WAS - have been an aquiantance of hers.

We often speak of a vicious attack, and I think that this may be the wrong picture altogether.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"The blood drops on Stride's hand were probably transfered there from her neck by Edward Johnston."

Ehrm....no, Tom. They were probably not put there by Johnson at all, for reasons I have already outlined on the old boards. Sorry to deflate that story of yours but there you are ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

If she had the cachous in her hand when approached by the BS man, despite being thrown to the ground and dragged to her death and throughout all her struggles, this little packet remains in her hand unbroken

...By clenching her fists containing the cachous and attempting to thump off her attacker, CD. Cachous in the hand is far more indicative of tension and preparedness for attack than it is of the swift, sudden attack that you seem to be envisaging. In short, the presence of the cachous when discovered is perfectly compatibile with the attack witnessed by Schwartz.

Remember, it's not a case of BS or Jack!

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

...By clenching her fists containing the cachous and attempting to thump off her attacker, CD. Cachous in the hand is far more indicative of tension and preparedness for attack than it is of the swift, sudden attack that you seem to be envisaging. In short, the presence of the cachous when discovered is perfectly compatibile with the attack witnessed by Schwartz.

Remember, it's not a case of BS or Jack!

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

If he grabs her scarf while she is facing away, with the wax paper and cashous already in her hand, when he chokes her her hands would instinctively fly to her throat, but I think while clenching the cashous. The killer may have pulled her off balance, twisted the scarf and her to face the wall while sliding the knife across her throat and dropping her. One move...but with steps.

She falls on her side, her knees drawn in, and she bleeds to death while gurgling for air.

And I think you can separate Broadshouldered Man from a probable Jack....not only is his supposed entrance witnessed and intoxicated, he yells at one, ..and her single wound doesnt suggest the Ripper at all.

I think its BSM by the evidence if Schwartz told the truth...or maybe even if he lied only about the location...but not that he might be Jack too.

Best regards Ben.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

I'd agree about the cachous, but unlike you, I think BS is a reasonable candidate for Jack, since serial killers will often alter their pre-crime strategy.

I think we should stick with the cachous topic, though!

Best regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

i've had enough of this thread, time to leave it to you guys; i'm wasting my time posting in.

[c.d.]

...By clenching her fists containing the cachous and attempting to thump off her attacker, CD. Cachous in the hand is far more indicative of tension and preparedness for attack than it is of the swift, sudden attack that you seem to be envisaging. In short, the presence of the cachous when discovered is perfectly compatibile with the attack witnessed by Schwartz.

Remember, it's not a case of BS or Jack!

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I have to disagree completely. A closed fist is used to punch someone. It is not very effective at close range. A much more natual reaction is to open the palm and push against your attacker. Much like the classic stiff arm move in American football. Once the palm is opened the cachous fall out.

c.d.

[Ben]

It is not very effective at close range. A much more natual reaction is to open the palm and push against your attacker.

I'm afraid you can't make assumptions like that, CD. It might well have been the most natural defence mechanism in the world for a vulnerable women to resort to in such a predicament; beating the attacker off with clenched fists and obvious futility. It's not as though we have much data on precisely how "close" the range was.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

I'm afraid you can't make assumptions like that, CD. It might well have been the most natural defence mechanism in the world for a vulnerable women to resort to in such a predicament
Ben

It depends, Ben.
Calamity Jane woud have shot the man dead.
Margaret Thatcher would have sent the RAF.
My wife would certainly have drawn her Somali sword.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

It depends, Ben.
Calamity Jane woud have shot the man dead.
Margaret Thatcher would have sent the RAF.
My wife would certainly have drawn her Somali sword.

... and Dame Thora Hird would have munched on a Digestive biscuit, said "Stop it this instant you swine!", and blinded him in a shower of crumbs and spit.

[DVV]

Sam, she's obviously the roughest.
Would you introduce me?

[Cap'n Jack]

Ah Boyos
you seem to drift towards the metal scraper, used to wipe boots clean, by the back door of the club, where young Liz was thrown down unexpectedly by a man who intended to hurt her but not kill her, and not knowing that it was the final curtain she sweetened her breath for someone else.
Tom will tell you, after sour grapes you need something sweet.