Those Damned Cachous

[Mrs Darrell]

Liz used to live off the Commercial Road didn't she? i don't think Devonshire St. exists now (does anyone know what it's called now?)

Perhaps she had arranged to meet a former client/friend there, or someone she knew frequented the club?

[Malcolm X]

i've thought loads about Mike's theory and there isn't really enough time to dream up a ``conspiracy`` ... someone would've got their story wrong.

now MRS MORTIMER saw no fight, she wasn't around, but might've been a few mins later, Eagle walked by at 12.55 ; but was walking quite fast/ too dark inside Dutfields....so from 12.48 is very dodgy indeed, the killer might have been seen

BS and Pipeman walked off........ Stride saw this and walked into Dutfields, but she had no view to the left or the right and was getting out her breath fresheners, when all of a sudden somebody stormed around the corner and grabbed her scarf, dragged her over; slit her throat and ran out again.

i think the killer was Pipeman, because of the two, Schwartz said that he had a knife in his hand, this would've happened before Mrs Mortimer returned to her front door.

now what about JTR, my guess is he was watching this from the crowd at 12.20 or thereabouts, he heard all the fuss while stalking the streets and thought ``lets take a look``.......... he walked off to kill Eddowes.......NO HE DIDN'T.........he walked off to find a piece of chalk first!!!!!!............``i'll blame these murders on the Jews``

but i have to say that the chalk really does bother me, it's the fly in the soup; because it looks like that graffiti was originally intended for the gates of Dutfields and he left home with it in his pocket, i'll have to give this loads of thought

[DVV]

i think the killer was Pipeman, because of the two, Schwartz said that he had a knife in his hand

Hey, Malcolm,
What do you smoke in your pipe ?
If you believe the Star and think the man had a knife in hand, then call him Knifeman.
You'll be far from the truth, but at least with a bit of logic.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

Hey, Malcolm,
What do you smoke in your pipe ?
If you believe the Star and think the man had a knife in hand, then call him Knifeman.
You'll be far from the truth, but at least with a bit of logic.

Amitiés,
David

well someone had a f***** knife in their hand didn't they! ............right, what's your take on this?...........``i haven't got an opinion``, yea' that makes sense; too scared just in case i attack it, go on prove me wrong

[Mrs Darrell]

I doubt whether JTR would have had time to be able to watch the Stride drama unfolding (even if he wasn't the killer) and then get to Mitre Square for the second killing. They're not that far apart in terms of distance, but for the Lawende sighting to be accurate I think that if JTR was at Berner Street then he was the killer of Liz.

[DVV]

go on prove me wrong

You already do this better than anyone can do.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

You already do this better than anyone can do.

Amitiés,
David

i have no respect for anyone that sneers at other peoples' efforts, you sir are arrogant....stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.

[DVV]

Don't worry, I smoke everything and I never cough.

[Malcolm X]

I doubt whether JTR would have had time to be able to watch the Stride drama unfolding (even if he wasn't the killer) and then get to Mitre Square for the second killing. They're not that far apart in terms of distance, but for the Lawende sighting to be accurate I think that if JTR was at Berner Street then he was the killer of Liz.

yes as i say, i still wonder about the chalk in his pocket...so i'm not positive about anything really yet, this Stride murder has always been a nightmare to sort out, and not many people are prepared to voice an opinion of what actually happened, they're too scared of ridicule...they're waiting to attack you instead, i dont give a damn if someone makes a glaring mistake...because mistakes happen in life, it's contributing that's important.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

How could it be that Liz didn't know she was in danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man and then dragged into the yard?

c.d.

Hi cd,

Liz was pulled towards the street not the yard, and it seems by the fact that Schwartz said he saw Broadshouldered Man helping her to her feet, that she wasnt dragged anywhere..which could be confirmed by her clothing anyway.

The cashous suggest only that she was'nt expecting an attack when she is grabbed, and since a medically stamped version of her death is grab scarf, twist, and cut while falling....she clenched them when it occurred, and it was so brief, she didnt have time to drop them. She was on the ground with her throat slit...likely pulling her knees in towards herself in reflex....as she was found.

BSM tries a pick up sloppily. On another night Liz or any Unfortunate might joke with them, or shout obscenities at them...but Liz is wearing her good evening wear, by her lodgemate whose holding Liz's velvet for her, she has a flower on her breast by multiple witnesses, and sweets for freshening ones mouth in her hand, standing just outside a Mens Club with attendees still in there.

She is either soliciting or waiting for someone, and if her rebuff of Broadshoulders is any indication, she may not have been working. A 40 something year old Unfortunate with 5 missing teeth and with more than 25 years on the streets since she started in Goteborg, doesnt turn down anyone...not if she needs the money.

But Liz has both cashous and flowers.....not the standard for such a woman I would think.

She was taken in the yard by someone who didnt like a whore turning him down... with people watching, he grabs her arm and escorts her in the yard, puts her up to the wall and pokes his finger into her chest likely while insulting her....it wouldnt be heard over the singing inside, and she insults him again, pulls free and sets out to wait outside the gates. In 2 seconds she is grabbed, cut and down where she stays.

She may even have taken the cashous out while he is insulting her...to act like he doesnt scare her.

Maybe she should have been scared....a larger man, drunk, angry, and appearing outside an Anarchists club.

If the street version occurred at all....according to the Inquest, it didnt.

Cheers cd.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Liz was pulled towards the street not the yard

As I pointed out to Mal earlier, all we know is that Schwartz apparently saw Liz being pulled towards the street. We don't know what happened after Schwartz fled the scene.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,As I pointed out to Mal earlier, all we know is that Schwartz apparently saw Liz being pulled towards the street. We don't know what happened after Schwartz fled the scene.

I agree Sam, just answering cd's post. We do have periodic visits from Fanny starting around that time, and Liz, nor BSM were outside the gates according to her....one of my favorite witnesses actually. She doesnt seem to want attention, and she has nothing to gain.

What we have is an altercation at 12:45 if Schwartz told the truth....his non-status at the Inquest suggests perhaps not, and by Blackwells estimates she is cut and on the ground at the latest within 1 minute of Goldstein's pass....nullifying a Diemshutz interruptus.

That leaves us with,.. again, if Schwartz isnt a Hutchinson, approximately 10 minutes for the cut to happen on location. And with Schwartz....she already has company.

All the best Gareth

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike,As I pointed out to Mal earlier, all we know is that Schwartz apparently saw Liz being pulled towards the street. We don't know what happened after Schwartz fled the scene.

Hi Sam

To be fair, Schwartz said he saw some-one try and pull Liz into the street but instead turned her around and threw her down, presumably inside the gates, if that where she was originally standing.

How many times do you have to explain things, eh ? But that what his report says, albeit a translation.

[Malcolm X]

Stride according to Blackwell thought that she died after 12.46 and possibly after 12.56, so anytime after BS walked off ...now goldstein passed at 12.55 and saw nothing, so it looks like Stride died before this and he didn't notice her on the ground!...we have also some congealed blood on the ground too, so this points to earlier on, closer to 12.48

it looks like the killer is either BS or Pipeman, but did the ripper quickly sneak in as per would've BS if he returned....maybe but the timing is very tight indeed, because the ripper would've had to be watching all of this, or closing in on Dutfields anyway.......but i doubt it's the Ripper because we see no mutilations, because he could've started mutilating her before Goldstein walked by......about 7 mins ... then disturbed/ retreated back into yard and then carried on again until being disturbed again by the cart... another 4 mins.

you'd see a total of 12 mins mutilations..she'd be looking like Eddowes.....but what about Goldstein?.....yes, he would've seen the ripper almost definitely,.......a corpse on the ground no, but he would've detected movement in there for sure, because the ripper would've turned his head and looked at Goldstein in shock.... he would've seen his face first....so the the ripper was almost definitely not in there as Goldstein walked by.

there is a slight possiblity that when Godstein walked past, that Ripper didn't turn and look but froze, thus he didn't notice because he was walking past quickly, i have to mention this; even so, Goldstein would've probably still seen JTR

but what about the Ripper after 12.55........NO, because Goldsein didn't see Stride, she would've been still alive.

[Sam Flynn]

But that what his report says, albeit a translation.

And, possibly, a dodgy translation at that, Jon!