Where did the 6d go?

[Guest]

Hi all,

Elizabeth Stride was one of two Canonicals, possibly, that was given money for service she provided her last afternoon on earth. She cleaned some rooms, and was paid 6d for her efforts. The other possible Canonical that earned some money similarly is Mary Kelly, who was given a few coins by Maria Harvey the last afternoon she spent on earth....possibly for assisting her with the laundry. They did spend the afternoon in Marys room, but thats speculation on the cause for the coins...the first story is not.

The cost of her usual bed, which we know she did not book that night, was 4d for the night, and we dont know of any purchase she might have made with the 6d,...yet it was not on her person when found dead.

It would seem likely that one of these suggestions might explain that;

1. Her killer took it.
2. She bought the flower and maidenfern on her jacket herself...they were not seen by the earliest witness, but seen by the later ones.
3. She bought cashous.
4. She bought her dinner
5. A witness who found her takes it.

She did not have alcohol in her blood, and I cant recall if her stomach revealed a meal perhaps 4 or 5 hours earlier, but she did at one time not have a flower that night, and then she did....and we do not know for sure whether she entertained any clients that night, so it might impact on whether the cashous were bought for clients that evening. And we do know that witnesses were touching her at least 5-6 minutes before the first policeman is onsite.

I think she bought the flower herself...and I think that has implications when assessing her seemingly loitering for some time near The Club on Berner Street.....perhaps wearing her doss for a bed.

Thoughts?

Best regards.

[John Bennett]

When I was doing the Wiki entry on Elizabeth Tanner, deputy of the lodging house at 32 Flower and Dean Street, I noticed a discrepancy in her testimony.

The inquest report in The Times of 4th October has her declaring that Stride did cleaning for payment of 6d and that Tanner had taken 4d off her for lodgings, but that she had not booked in for the Saturday (29th Sept) night.

Was this possibly for a previous night owed? Even so, it would suggest that Stride left the lodging house with only 2d*. So where did that go?

JB

*Have I got my sums right, pre-decimal buffs?

[caz]

Hi Perry,

Thanks for starting this thread. I wasn't sure that no money had been found on her. But if that's the case I do think the simplest options are either that she spent all her doss money - just like Polly did three times over - and was therefore looking to earn it again when she was murdered - again, presumably, like Polly - and/or her killer took it, just as the ripper must have taken back any money he had to give Polly and co up front, or relieved them of anything they had made earlier.

It's possible that the ripper was only able to operate because his victims were penniless and desperate, so he may not have had to put his hand in his pocket until he got them alone and pulled out his knife instead. But I'm not sure even the most desperate would have gone with anyone on the strength of a verbal I.O.U, if they knew of the fate suffered by Emma and Martha earlier in the year. No point taking desperate measures to relieve immediate suffering unless there's some expectation of a temporary remedy.

Another interesting parallel is that Polly was proud of her jolly new bonnet, while Liz wanted someone to take good care of her piece of velvet. Polly reckoned the bonnet would be an instant aid to getting the required doss money, while Liz may have been planning to make or trim a garment with the velvet. So some of the money they had managed to earn most recently, by cleaning or other means, seems to have gone towards making themselves look nicer for prospective customers.

Was Liz the one who had some 'farinaceous' matter in her tummy? We don't know if she had to pay for her own last food and drink, but there was no safe drinking water, so if she had a glass or two of beer earlier in the evening and then emptied her bladder, would there have been enough alcohol entering her blood stream to be detected after death? Would coffee have shown up?

I have to say that a lack of any money found on Liz only makes it more likely, in my view, that she was either soliciting for her doss money, or had it on her, when she was murdered by the same man who killed Polly and Annie, for not being desperate enough to go where he wanted her to take him.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

*Have I got my sums right, pre-decimal buffs?

Yes, John. [Our posts crossed.]

Oddly enough, sixpence was known as a 'tanner'.

So we have Tanner taking fourpence from Liz's tanner, Liz being taken from Kidney, and a kidney being taken from Kate.

What an offally tangled web.

Love,

Caz
X

[John Bennett]

Yes, John. [Our posts crossed.]

Oddly enough, sixpence was known as a 'tanner'.

So we have Tanner taking fourpence from Liz's tanner, Liz being taken from Kidney, and a kidney being taken from Kate.

What an offally tangled web.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks Caz, I was only 3 when we went decimal, but I do remember the leftovers (half-crown, 10p's with 2shillings on them etc).

Nifty word-play there, too!!

JB x

[perrymason]

Hi folks,

I had forgotten that article about the deduction of 4d John, good on ya. I think I can handle the question of what night it might be for though.....I would think it was for Friday Night, because she indicated she would not be staying there that night, and the piece of velvet bestowing and the claim she didnt know when she'd return suggests that she wasnt pre-paying for a bed.

I understand your perspective Caz, there are often nights for these women that are only predictable in terms of their street working at some point...and as you say, maybe earning a bed a few times over due to booze. Polly had her bonnet, Liz had her flower, and Kate had her new jacket. The only one of those that to me is not explained by basic common sense needs or wants, is the flower. Then the cashous....then the fact she did not pay for a room and left no word where she was going, or when she might return. She is wearing an ankle length skirt....which I believe is the only time I read of a working street whore wearing something that by its nature is an inconvenience for "working", and the only time we have a witness see a man try to pick her up that night, she rebuffs him and pulls away. For all we know Broadshouldered Man might have been an ok looker, and didnt stink...like most of her clients, yet it seems she rejected the proposal.

I feel that the cumulative data suggests she might be meeting someone that night....and her loitering near the club for her last 1/2 hour might be because its the location she is to meet at. Which is why I think there may be a good chance she bought herself the flower...for maybe the first "date" since giving Kidney the boot. She was said to have assisted Jewish Families during the high holidays with their dinner and cleaning up....might she have met a nice Jewish Socialist at someones house?

Best regards J,.. C.

[Sam Flynn]

Do we know how many hours passed between her earning the sixpence and her death? If the answer is "several", then she could've spent it (or whatever was left after "deductions") on any number of things, and found/earned more elsewhere.

[perrymason]

Do we know how many hours passed between her earning the sixpence and her death? If the answer is "several", then she could've spent it (or whatever was left after "deductions") on any number of things, and found/earned more elsewhere.

I believe she finished up around 5 Sam, so there is tons of time for her to have spent it a bunch of ways. Dinner for example. Maybe she buys the cashous.

What is certain is that she had money when she went out, she hadnt been drinking according to the medical data, and her clothes are seemingly neat and clean at 12:30...because her clothes are not mentioned as soiled or ripped, or wrinkled....it looked as if "she had been lain gently down"..implying she wasnt disheveled.

My contention is that is she had been "working", wearing an ankle length skirt....she would look a little disheveled by midnight, and might not have bothered with the flowers in the first place.

I dont believe the killer took her money, I dont believe the witnesses who find her did, I dont believe she made and spent the money by working....she had no drink in her....which leaves dinner, or the flower, or the cashous, or anything else that she ingests...other than booze,....because anything new, other than food or drink, would have been found on her. And drink wasnt found in her.

Ankle length skirt....on a night with rain. She had choices other than that skirt one would think...he lodgemate said she was wearing her evening clothing...which may not mean "work wear".

Best regards Sam.

[Supe]

Anybody consider that, just like the hunk of velvet, Liz left the money with someone for safekeeping and after she was dead said person "forgot" he/she was holding on to her money. Maybe the guy she had an altercation with was a pickpocket and wrestling her down was a means of distracting attention. Or maybe she gave it to the "truly needy" at Barnardo's. Or had a hot tip on a horse or . . . well the possibilities are endless and lead nowhere fast.

Or, as Gareth suggested, 6d just disappears when one enjoys a night on the town. As in the famous story of the Scotsman (doubtless from Aberdeen) who was asked how his trip to London was and answered: "Verra expensive. I wasna there an hour when Bang! went sax pence!" Liz might agree with him.

Don.

[perrymason]

Hi Don,

I readily accept that....there are a myriad of ways she might have spent the money she had...or as you say, left it with someone.

But we do have the presence of a flower she did not have at the lodging house when leaving it, and we have cashous...something that we only hear of once in connection with any street whores to my knowledge.

Neither item would be required for soliciting, nor would it likely appear as a foundation element of her own Maslow's Heirachy, and at least one was definitely obtained, gift or purchase, between her leaving the lodging house and being found dead. Meaning we know of at least one thing that was new, and found on her.

My mentioning of some circumstantial evidence to support the notion that she was spruced up for someone is not my argument for the flowers as having taken her money, but only to illustrate that we have circumstances which appear may be of Liz making herself "attractive". Maybe its me...but I dont see a "work night" for these women as being about feminine and pretty, and Liz is missing 4 or 5 teeth as it is. She seems to have preened to my eye....including the use of the lint brush, and thats why I believe the flower is a decent bet for that money.

Best regards Don.

[caz]

Hi All,

Some good attempts to explain away the missing money here. But nobody seems to want to concede that it's another thing Liz had in common with other victims that are accepted as Jack's.

Not a penny found in Mary Kelly's room either. So did she leave money with someone else for safe keeping? It's strange that some see Jack as unfailingly sticking to a certain pattern, but don't find the 'no money' pattern suggestive of victims all still trying to earn their doss, or some back rent, or just some (liquid?) breakfast, at the moment when they are cut down for no apparent reason by a mean man with a mean knife who has no intention of parting with a penny or leaving them with one of their own. How many Scottish suspects are there, by the way?

She is wearing an ankle length skirt....which I believe is the only time I read of a working street whore wearing something that by its nature is an inconvenience for "working", and the only time we have a witness see a man try to pick her up that night, she rebuffs him and pulls away. For all we know Broadshouldered Man might have been an ok looker, and didnt stink...like most of her clients, yet it seems she rejected the proposal.

Hi Perry,

I do admire your ability to wear rose-tinted specs when looking at Liz's typically Victorian skirt and imagining that this one was only ankle length because she was unfortunate enough to have her throat cut on one of her 'respectable' nights, when she was hanging around a club after midnight in her Sunday best, waiting for someone she knew and expecting him to be very nice to her. He let her down pretty badly one way or t'other, didn't he?

Had she been 'working' the clubs after midnight instead, you would presumably have expected her to wear a skirt that had to have a considerable amount of fabric hacked off the bottom to make it fit for the purpose. If she had a reasonably safe place to keep this other skirt, she could have wrapped it round the velvet to keep that safe too. And isn't it getting dangerously close to Kate hacking up her precious apron because she was still having her monthly visitor and for some reason couldn't get to any of her rags when she needed one?

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

How many Scottish suspects are there, by the way?

MacHeath?

[perrymason]

Hi Caz,

Well, we know she didnt spend it drinking...she had no alcohol in her blood, she may have spent it dining, she may have spent it on cashous, or she might have spent it on the maidenfern and flower...and to my eye at least, the flower is the only thing that "appears" between her leaving the lodging house and being found dead. She didnt have it when she was first seen, she did when she was seen by the next witness. She may have had the cashous all along, we dont know.

On the ankle length skirt, her lodgemate who she bestows the fabric to suggested that Liz was in her good "evening wear"...and if for working, that means she would have to hike her skirt up to her waist, instead of lifting just the back, or the front of it.

Its not my romantic notion that these women had private lives with men Caz, ...Annie did, Mary did, Liz had a boyfriend until just recently before she is killed, Kate had Kelly, ....I believe its in evidence that these women had "relationships", and likely dates too. For those nights I could see ankle length clothing....for the nights she is bending over grabbing the fence with a client behind her, not as likely. IMHO.

Cheers Caz, all.

[caz]

Hi Perry,

You still miss the point. Skirts were ankle length for the adult woman: rich woman, poor woman, beggarwoman, thief. Have you any evidence that working prostitutes in 1888 made themselves recognisable by hacking off the bottoms of their skirts?

In your opinion, was Liz found penniless because she was unfashionably early for a hot date and had been fully expecting her new, less than eager boyfriend to treat her to a bed for the night when he finally showed up?

Is this really the simplest explanation, considering everything we know about Liz's lifestyle?

Love,

Caz
X

[perrymason]

Hi Perry,

You still miss the point. Skirts were ankle length for the adult woman: rich woman, poor woman, beggarwoman, thief. Have you any evidence that working prostitutes in 1888 made themselves recognisable by hacking off the bottoms of their skirts?

In your opinion, was Liz found penniless because she was unfashionably early for a hot date and had been fully expecting her new, less than eager boyfriend to treat her to a bed for the night when he finally showed up?

Is this really the simplest explanation, considering everything we know about Liz's lifestyle?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

I do realize that were talking about Victorian London, so the ankle lenghth is not a surprise from that standpoint alone, but I did read that street women would buy used skirts and dresses from pawn shops and trim up the hemlines, which was often the only part that was worn looking.

And there were skirts being made at that time that were just below the knee in length, likely not proper for a "lady" to socialize in, but maybe for an unfortunate who felt "advertising" helped her cause.

Heres what I believe the evidence indicates,... Liz had made another arrangement for sleeping that night before she left the lodging house, she is described by her friend as being dressed nicely for the evening, she leaves the lodging house without a flower on her breast, but perhaps 6d in her skirt pocket, and maybe cashous. The flower is added by her, or some man, that evening.

I feel fairly safe in assuming that the above indicates that she was bought, or bought herself a flower, that she was bought, or bought herself cashous, and that neither of those things would be a regular part of a "work" night for her.

Bets regards Caz.