Leon Goldstein

[Grabbit]

Hi.

Does anyone know what time Leon Goldstein passed through Berner St. Is there a possibility that IF Jack the Ripper killed Elizabeth Stride, then Goldstein was the one who disturbed him and not in fact Deimshutz. Just a thought. Apologies if this has come up already, but I did a search and couldn't find it.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Grabbit

It would have been about 12.55 am when Mrs Mortimer, who was standing in her doorway for ten minutes, saw him walk quickly down Berner St, looking up at the Club as he passed on the other side of the road around the corner of the Board School.

Going by the medical reports I believe Stride was killed before Diemschutz entered the yard and the killer long gone, so he may have passed the club when the killer was there.

[Chris Scott]

Leon Goldstein

Lloyds Weekly
7 October 1888

Reports have been ciculated this week of a man having been seen in the streets with a black bag abou the time of the murders; but suspicion was removed by a young traveller named Goldstein coming forward and stating that he was in Berner Street.


The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.

The only census listing I can find of a man of the right trade is in 1891:
55 Marine Parade, Minster, Sheppey, Kent
Head: Joseph Phibey aged 51 born Chatham - Blacksmith
Wife: Annie Phibey aged 50 born Commercial Road, London
Children:
Harry aged 16 - Printer
Gertrude aged 12
Florence aged 6
Married daughter:
Amelia Millmott aged 24
All children born in Sheerness
Visitor:
Leon Goldstein aged 25 (Unmarried) born Russia - Cigarette maker

[Grabbit]

Hello Jon and Chris.

About 12.55 would probably put him in the right time frame for the doctors time of death then. It's likely to be nearer this one than 12.46 anyway if there was blood still running when Edward Spooner arrived. Assuming Spooner was correct that is. Also assuming the doctors were as well. But he just might dovetail into the available evidence better than has so far been allowed for.

I would imagine his passing and looking up at the club, even from the other side of the road would have rattled the killer if he, (the killer), was still there and observed it. Depends if Goldstein's footsteps could be heard above the sounds from the club I suppose.

Cheers for the info anyway.

[perrymason]

Hi Grabbit,

I think this guy is more interesting than he's been given credit for because as you note, he may have been walking past when the murder is actually occurring....however I dont see that he interrupted anything, because Fanny is out at her door off and on when he passes and beyond that until its almost time for Diemshutz to arrive, and she sees no-one else near or coming from that yard.

Why I think he is interesting is this....he had empty cigarette cartons in his Gladstone.....there were cigarette makers inside the yard in the cottages that stated they were awake at the time, and although he sounds like a passer by, "striding" by quickly on his way home, he is also a member of that club.

Wess translates for him, Wess may have translated for Schwartz, and Wess speaks first at the Inquest....something that I cannot for the life of me figure out why. I think "The Club" may have been doing damage control myself.

Best regards

[Grabbit]

Interesting theory. I shall mull that one over.

We'll never know unfortunately, but wouldn't it be the weirdest of turns if the mythical gladstone bag carrying Jack turned out to be true. And just for a real twist, if this was the only one he didn't do after all. There's a new film in there for someone.

As for Fanny not seeing anyone, well, as you say she was there on and off. Maybe she wasn't as nosey as she hoped to be. The gateway was close enough to the corner to have taken only seconds to walk between. She could have missed someone. She clearly missed seeing Liz who was on that street for some time if other witnesses are to be believed.

And don't forget the locked toilet, which in Philip Sugden's book is described as a locked loft. Not sure which is the true version or if it's even significant, but I really wish I knew the entire surroundings of the yard. I reckon a fairly athletic man could always find an alternative route, even via rooftops if necessary. It's never ceases to surprise me how many serial killers have previous convictions for things like theft or burglary. 29 Hanbury St is described as a dead end, yet if you're discovered, knife in hand next to the body of a dead woman, just how hard will it be to jump over a 6ft fence? And what was at the bottom of that yard? Could you make a break for freedom that way?

I have so many questions about the surroundings and Dutfield's yard presents me with just as many I'm afraid. There are enough blank areas to keep Jack in mind as a possible and plausible suspect for me.

Best to keep an open mind on this one. BS may be the simplest explanation, but he wouldn't be the first poor sap who got blamed for a murder just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. On the other hand, he may have cut her throat on purpose to hide behind 'the Ripper enigma' little knowing just how much he was about to contribute that particular enigma (Smith and Tabram were still included by the authorities at this time I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).

Oh well, more puzzle over.

[nashwan]

Gloucester Citizen June 02, 1892

Page 4, of 4

Column 1, of 6

MR. LABOUCHERE AND THE STAMFORD MUSICAL AND DRAMATIC AGENCY.

This afternoon, at Bow-street Police-court, London, before Sir John Bridge, John James Gardine, a clerk, of 21, Newington Green-road, Stoke Newington, was charged on remand with conspiring with Louis Leon Goldstein, alias Roberts, to obtain from Lily Holton the sum of £21; also with committing an indecent assault upon the prosecutrix. The case arose out of the article in Truth describing "The Musical and Dramatic Agency" conducted by Goldstein and Roberts as "The Stamford-street Road to Ruin." For publishing the article Mr. Labouchere was unsuccessfully prosecuted by Roberts for alleged libel.

When the case was called on, Mr. Carsons (instruct-ing Mr Besley, now unavoidably absent), said he was appearing for the prisoner, and would not apply for an adjournment, though he was not in a position to cross-examine the witness.

Apart from the other candidate posted by Chris Scott the only other Leon Goldsteins of a suitable age are Lion or Leon Goldstein, a wood gluer and carpenter from Romania born circa 1854 and the above Louis Leon Goldstein who was born either in 1871 or 1874 and who was recorded on the census as being a sign writer.

[nashwan]

Christian Street, London

1891 Census

Class Piece Folio Page No. of Schedule Road, Street, &c., and No. or Name of House

RG12 0285 0090 0004 0023 20 Christian St ('The Comet')

Conrad Hansmann Head Married 50 1841 General Dealer Shop _ _ X Germany Naturalized British Subject
Henry Hansmann Son Single 22 1869 Licensed Victualler Pub _ _ X London Holborn
Emma Hansmann Daughter Single 18 1873 _ _ _ _ London Hampstead
Christina Hansmann Daughter _ 15 1876 _ _ _ _ London Whitechapel
Charles Hansmann Son _ 13 1878 _ _ _ _ London Whitechapel
Fred Nette Lodger Single 22 1869 Baker & Journeyman – unemployed _ X _ Germany

RG12 0285 0090 0004 0024 22 Christian St

Hinrich Otterstedt Head Married 42 1849 Sugar Refiner _ X _ Hanover
Catherine Otterstedt Wife Married 44 1847 _ _ _ _ Hanover
Catherine Otterstedt Daughter _ 08 1883 _ _ _ _ London St George E
Margarethe Otterstedt Daughter _ 06 1885 _ _ _ _ London St George E
Paul Bermaud Boarder Single 18 1873 Waiter Inn _ X _ Bremen Germany
Martin Rosenberg Boarder Single 33 1858 Cigarette Maker … _ X _ Russia
Hermann Oed Boarder Married 42 1849 Electric Light Engineer – Unemployed _ _ _ Hanover

RG12 0285 0090 0004 0025 22 Christian St

Hermann Linsmann Head Married 51 1840 Fur Skin Make _ X _ Hanover
Maria C Linsmann Wife Married 42 1849 _ _ _ _ London Mile End New Town

RG12 0285 0090 0004 0026 24 and 26 Christian St

Joseph Hellmuth Head Married 32 1859 Sausage Maker & Caretake of Premises _ X _ Baden Germany
Heinrich Schőnhals Boarder Single 28 1863 Sausage Maker _ X _ Hessen Germany
Henirich Appel Boarder Single 18 1873 Sausage Maker _ X _ Hessen Germany
Fritz Bűschen Boarder Single 38 1853 Sausage Maker _ X _ Hanover Germany
Fritz Conz Boarder Single 33 1858 Sausage Maker _ X _ Wűrtemburg Germany
Theodor Richardt Boarder Single 20 1871 Sausage Maker _ X _ Thűringen Germany
Carl Eber Boarder Single 21 1870 Sausage Maker _ X _ Rheinpfalz Germany
Johann van Halbeck Boarder Single 25 1866 Sausage Maker _ X _ Hanover Germany
Elizabeth Hellmuth Wife Married 30 1861 Dom General Servant. Wife of Joseph Hellmuth _ _ _ Hessen Germany