Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Tom_Wescott]

Good Michael Hunting,

You're absolutely right in that interruption is not the deciding issue, and with all the analysis we've done we still cannot be certain of interruption, so it's pretty much a moot point.
I don't think the pony and cart would be an interrupting factor unless the killer knew it was Diemschutz and slipped back in the club, which I don't think is likely. I do think BS Man might have been Morris Eagle just trying to get the prostitute out of his club's yard. But that's another story.
Leon Goldstein walked right by the club pre-Diemschutz and that may or may not have upset the killer. I don't think it would have and therefore I don't think the pony and cart would have because he wouldn't know they'd be turning in there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

I will agree with you on getting that damned prostitute out of the yard. I think that's what BS was doing as well. I don't know about Morris the Cat, however. I do think if JTR killed her it wasn't because he wanted to do it there, just that he had to, and that he could have been at least a part time member, but I have no evidence and I ain't going there.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz scenario - What are your thoughts?

Michael (and anyone else interested),

According to other club members, Morris Eagle was the only club member arriving about the time BS Man would have been in play, so it's very possible he was the man Schwartz saw when you consider that Schwartz did not see anything beyond the man standing at the gateway. Stride would have been hidden in relative darkness and likely only visible to someone TURNING INTO THE PASSAGEWAY. Schwartz sees Pipeman start running across the street and Schwartz books it. Pipeman comes to a stop at the corner, Schwartz is gone, and Morris Eagle goes on into the club. It's now only Pipeman on the corner and Liz on the pavement, picking herself up. Stride is either called over to Pipeman or sees an opportunity in him and walks to the corner. James Brown enters the scene and sees them. This is the last time Stride is seen alive.

A little while later, Diemschutz discovers the body and calls other club members down. Morris Eagle is affected more than the others by his own admission and the testimony of others. Why is this? Perhaps he recognized her from 20 minutes earlier.

This is just one scenario, but you'll notice it doesn't require omitting Schwartz or Brown.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

I get it. It's good, but why would Pipeman come over and kill her? That is difficult to reconcile, I believe.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Her murder is hard to reconcile, period. Nevertheless, if Pipeman were the last man seen with her, it just is what it is. He killed her because he was Jack the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that Morris arrived quite late for the meeting?

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

CD,

No, I'm saying that he walked his girl home and arrived back at the club about 12:40am, which is what he and other club members testified to.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Ok, thanks, Tom. Do we know what time the meeting officially ended or what time most people started leaving the club?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:

"I will agree with you on getting that damned prostitute out of the yard. I think that's what BS was doing as well. "

But if, Mike, that was Eagle or one of his fellow clubbers - would he have yelled "Lipski" at someone? Doesn´t seem like the first insult that would spring to a Jews mind, does it?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"James Brown enters the scene and sees them. This is the last time Stride is seen alive."

We don´t know that Brown had the timing right, Tom. And he was not sure that it WAS Liz he saw. Moreover, Pipeman was a tallish fellow (5 ft 11, according to out Hungarian friend), and not described as stout by Schwartz, whereas Brown has his man down as stout and 5 ft 7. And of course, Pipeman tallies poorly with Lawendes man too.
Also, I find a scenario where Stride leaves the entrance to the yard, snuggles up against a wall with Browns man, only to tell him: "No, not tonight. Some other night", after which she makes for the yard once more, accompanied by the man she has just rejected. I would think that if this was done with force, she would have yelled out at the top of her voice.

It. s like I say, Tom: Once you move with BS man as her killer, you don´t have to take four inches of peoples lenght´s , you don´t need to explain how the transport from the corner to the yard was performed etcetera. It all becomes quite, quite easy.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Mike writes:

"I will agree with you on getting that damned prostitute out of the yard. I think that's what BS was doing as well. "

But if, Mike, that was Eagle or one of his fellow clubbers - would he have yelled "Lipski" at someone? Doesn´t seem like the first insult that would spring to a Jews mind, does it?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

That's a good point but wasn't "Lipski" also used as a verb as in "I'll come over there and "Lipski" your ass."?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

It was, c.d. What I am questioning is whether a jew would use a jewish name to hurl insults and/or threats towards another jew.
Actually, Lipski split the people of Whitechapel in two parts, for and against, and to be called a regular Lipski would have been a compliment to some. But I think we can rule out compliments in this case.
So what do you think; would a jew like Eagle use a jewish name to insult or threat? My guess is that the name Lipski was never used in that club as something derogatory.

The best, c.d!
Fisherman

[c.d.]

I agree, Fisherman. That's why I said you had made a good point. I was just trying to come up with a reason for why he might have done what he did. You know me, I like to ask questions. (can't find the damn smiley face but insert here).

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Hi c.d!

It has, of course, been suggested that if the man who called out "Lipski" was a jew, he may have been sly enough to conceal that fact by using an insult that jews normally would not resort to.
But then again, what has NOT been suggested in this case...

All the best, c.d!

[Tom_Wescott]

But if, Mike, that was Eagle or one of his fellow clubbers - would he have yelled "Lipski" at someone? Doesn´t seem like the first insult that would spring to a Jews mind, does it?

The best,
Fisherman

The clubmen dispised Judism as a faith and didn't care at all for its practitioners. They are notorious for this. They held feasts with a roasted pig as the centerpiece on the holidays when Jews were fasting. Eagle had just THAT EVENING given a speech on why Jews should be socialist. It would not be at all surprising to see him use an anti-Semitic epithet.

Fisherman,

That's fine if BS Man was her killer, but if the evidence suggests other possibilities (such as Pipeman or OJ Simpson), then we should see where those possibilities lead. It's too easy just to go with the simple conclusion that it was BS Man simply because he pulled her around a tad.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott