Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Sam Flynn]

There was a dung heap in Dutfields Yard. The heap was searched

...it's at times like those that "the long arm of the Law" comes in very handy

[Tom_Wescott]

They was a dung heap in Dutfields Yard.

They was? That ain't a nice thing to say abouts all dem young mens, Montee.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

George,

They was a dung heap in Dutfields Yard. It wasnt empty.

The heap was searched by the way.

Monty

[george chapman]

Monty; what is your point? Dung heap in what way?

[Monty]

In answer to this threads question....

.....a dung heap.

gh, if you think about he was almost caught in mitre sq also & i dont know if he knew it was well policed or not but if he did it was irrelevant.

I suspect Eddowes would have known the Police beats also, even if they were reversed.

Monty

[Mitch Rowe]

Talk about making assumptions!

Why on earth should whoever killed Eddowes have written the GSG before loping off up to Mitre Square? What would the purpose of that be? (Of course, this pre-supposes that the GSG was written by Eddowes' killer, which I have argued against for yonks). You seem to be pre-supposing that Jack had determined to kill - I think that he was a total chancer who took the opportunity to kill as it presented itself. I don't think any of the Whitechapel killings were pre-meditated. There is absolutely no evidence for this. Neither do I think that the Ripper, the Whitechapel Murderer, call him what you will, took any risks, at least not consciously. I think he was possessed of an extraordinary amount of sheer good luck. We haven't the faintest idea where he was before he latched onto Eddowes - for all we know he might have been hanging around Mitre Square for hours.

One of my basic arguments against Stride and Eddowes being killed by the same hand is that they were too close, time-wise. Even a maniac like the Ripper must have needed a finite time to recover from a killing. Whoever killed Stride came [I]very[I] close to being nicked, and had I been her killer I think I'd have kind of melted away into the night....not immediately hot-foot it up to Mitre Square for another bash.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Graham

Graham.. I was making something up that sounded stupid just to make a point. If Stride is not a victim then one should start speculating what the hey was in the Rippers brain that night. Eddowes was not what the Ripper wanted. He shows this with Chapman and Mary. He is not Ripping them up nearly as quickly as Eddowes. He is taking time to remove large flaps of skin. He is preparing the body first.

This guy wasnt a total "chancer". He couldnt have been. These things were happening in the early morning hours for one thing. By chance alone we should see at least one case happening between noon and midnight.

The Ripper seems to have used a right proper blade for his work. On each occasion no less. If you believe Richardson all he had on him was a butter knife. I dont care what era you are in. People dont usually carry a weapon like JTR seems to have had.

If he were as disorganized as you suppose then he was very lucky. That dont add up. The only disorganization I could commit to was if JTR had many targets and picked them according to his feelings. That dont add up neither.

No...That dude knew he was going to kill when he set out. He may not have known who but as soon as he saw them he knew they were dead.

Edit>> He may have waited for the right moment to kill Annie. But he knew he would kill her from the start.

[george chapman]

gh, if you think about he was almost caught in mitre sq also & i dont know if he knew it was well policed or not but if he did it was irrelevant.once he met eddowes there was only going to be one outcome. the only thing that doesnt ring true though is lawende, the jewish chap says he saw eddowes and man talking quietly at entrance to church passage but the man appeared 'calm' perhaps. Was that JTR? cant of been many too many people in that area that time of night? Also, was he dressed as JTR would be?? Was that JTR? or was he in shadows waiting for man to leave eddowes?

[George Hutchinson]

You know, GC, I find the idea (for that is what it must remain) of JTR being in a kind of mental frenzy and not thinking about where he was walking after the murder of ES (I'm one of those who does believe he was the killer) quite a plausible one. It is easy to imagine that, with something going wrong, the killer would momentarily flee away from his comfort zone (geographically speaking) and could have found himself, when coming to his senses, as far away as Aldgate Pump. As a theory, it's not one I'd dismiss as impossible.

PHILIP

[george chapman]

stride/eddowes night.............

i think he killed both of them. He nearly got caught with stride and its obvious adrenaline was pumping and i think maybe he found himself in mitre square area without realising how hed got there. Desperate to mutilate (more important than the throat cutting itself due to missing out earlier) stumbles across Eddowes and kills her in Mitre sq. Very risky as it was well patrolled by police as it was a wealthy area (Tea merchants). But when you need to fulfill a need risks are taken. Its human nature..................

[Simon Owen]

Stepping a short distance across an invisible parish boundary is hardly venturing into the Twilight Zone, Simon.I'm not glossing over anything - I'm seeing things as they were, pure and simple. I'm not presupposing some "mental block" on the Ripper's part that would have made him uncomfortable in straying West to within a few minutes' walk of Petticoat Lane.

Are you familiar with Professor David Cantor's theory of geographical profiling ? Strangely enough , killers do seem to select artificial boundaries for themselves such as a main road , a railway line or a river. My suggestion is that for the Ripper it was the East End / City boundary and that he only crossed it to murder Eddowes because of a great need and desperation.

If you have ' Criminal Shadows ' have a look at the case of the juvenile rapist who attacked old women in Birmingham tower blocks. This case illustrates my point quite nicely.

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry Sam , but there is an important difference. The East End was the killer's territory and he left it for some reason.

Stepping a short distance across an invisible parish boundary is hardly venturing into the Twilight Zone, Simon.

You have a theory that Stride was not a Ripper victim and so you are willing to dismiss this , or merely gloss over it.

I'm not glossing over anything - I'm seeing things as they were, pure and simple. I'm not presupposing some "mental block" on the Ripper's part that would have made him uncomfortable in straying West to within a few minutes' walk of Petticoat Lane.

[Simon Owen]

It may as well not have been - Eddowes was killed within a handful of minutes' walking distance from the East End boundary.

Sorry Sam , but there is an important difference. The East End was the killer's territory and he left it for some reason. If Jack killed all four of the other canonical victims , then the East End was his hunting ground and his comfort zone.

It may well be that the Ripper took the piece of Eddowes' apron back with him into the East End to show that he had been the killer in the Mitre Square murder that night.

You have a theory that Stride was not a Ripper victim and so you are willing to dismiss this , or merely gloss over it. I believe that although a small difference , it is an telling one.

[Graham]

Many good reasons have already been given elsewhere in the debates by me and a few others Sam.
Lets just say that everything of that Crime fits an SKs Profile and nothing really fits the Domestic or any other type Crimes Profiles.

But y'all can argue that. What we have are two trains of thought. If Stride wasnt a Victim then its obvious JTR took many risks that night wich were out of his character. We know he came from at least as far as Goulston Street to meet Eddowes. Most likely he didnt stand around long before being Propositioned. So we know where he was directly before killing Eddowes.
If I were to make a conclusion based on that I would guess that JTR wrote the GSG before killing Eddowes. After the killing JTR stands in front of his own writing to re-read it while cleaning himself and knife or knives before he goes into his Apt. JTR probably lives with some-one in the GS Apts.

Talk about making assumptions!

Why on earth should whoever killed Eddowes have written the GSG before loping off up to Mitre Square? What would the purpose of that be? (Of course, this pre-supposes that the GSG was written by Eddowes' killer, which I have argued against for yonks). You seem to be pre-supposing that Jack had determined to kill - I think that he was a total chancer who took the opportunity to kill as it presented itself. I don't think any of the Whitechapel killings were pre-meditated. There is absolutely no evidence for this. Neither do I think that the Ripper, the Whitechapel Murderer, call him what you will, took any risks, at least not consciously. I think he was possessed of an extraordinary amount of sheer good luck. We haven't the faintest idea where he was before he latched onto Eddowes - for all we know he might have been hanging around Mitre Square for hours.

One of my basic arguments against Stride and Eddowes being killed by the same hand is that they were too close, time-wise. Even a maniac like the Ripper must have needed a finite time to recover from a killing. Whoever killed Stride came [I]very[I] close to being nicked, and had I been her killer I think I'd have kind of melted away into the night....not immediately hot-foot it up to Mitre Square for another bash.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

Many good reasons have already been given elsewhere in the debates by me and a few others Sam.

...but they're all geared up to making a connection between the Stride and Eddowes murder. My question ("Apart from supporting the opinion that Stride was a Ripper victim, which facts about the events of that night does her death truly explain?") remains unanswered. I don't believe that it can be answered, incidentally, unless one believes in the first instance that JTR killed Stride.

[Mitch Rowe]

Don't be such a tease! If there are so many facts about that night which can be explained only if Stride was killed by the Ripper (apart from the somewhat circular assertion that she was a Ripper victim) surely you can share a few of them with us, Mitch?

Many good reasons have already been given elsewhere in the debates by me and a few others Sam.
Lets just say that everything of that Crime fits an SKs Profile and nothing really fits the Domestic or any other type Crimes Profiles.

But y'all can argue that. What we have are two trains of thought. If Stride wasnt a Victim then its obvious JTR took many risks that night wich were out of his character. We know he came from at least as far as Goulston Street to meet Eddowes. Most likely he didnt stand around long before being Propositioned. So we know where he was directly before killing Eddowes.
If I were to make a conclusion based on that I would guess that JTR wrote the GSG before killing Eddowes. After the killing JTR stands in front of his own writing to re-read it while cleaning himself and knife or knives before he goes into his Apt. JTR probably lives with some-one in the GS Apts.