An INCREDIBLY fanciful idea about Stride murder

[Charles Daniels]

The more I think about Stride's murder the more I believe that something along the lines of what Fisherman suggests here is more likely than her being a Ripper victim...

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...fisherman.html

Very well presented and reasoned piece.

I have a few issues with one or two things there, but will think about it and respond with some thoughts when I've collected them.

[Charles Daniels]

I'm loathe to assign different killers to Stride and Eddowes not because of any lost mystique or sensationalism, but solely due to the fact that I'd need two murderers when the timings and locations involved strongly allow for one.

But Stride still seems an odd one out...

So... here are some wild ideas off the top of my head, let's see if anything fails the laugh test --

The killer has been fatally targetting Whitechapel area prostitutes for at least a month, maybe nearly 2 months. He may have been violently targeting them earlier than that. He escapes detection, and appears to have a good command of the area. My gut here says that he's probably known prostitutes in the area for quite some time -- before all this violence started.

So I'm assuming there are some women working in the Whitechapel area he's become acquainted with, or at least knows by sight. I doubt he's just some guy who's pure as the driven snow and hasn't made any mental notes of the appearance and locations of his potential prey.

Over the course of months he'll know some faces.

So what if he knows Stride?

Either he's paid for her services before OR at the very least he knows her to
be working as a prostitute on occasion.

He passes her near Dutfield's yard.

He tries to solicit her services, and she tells him she's not on the game.
He gets pissed off and an assault ensues.

Since she's not on the game, she's not leading him to some secluded spot and she won't let him lead her off.

So he kills her there.

But one of two things or both go wrong

Either he knows Stride better than the other victims and it throws him more than he suspects

Or

He started off feeling Stride was fair game as a known prostitute, but she
wasn't actively working, so it feels wrong

He then leaves the scene but feels compelled to complete the urges he first had when he encountered Stride.

He walks away from the scene and encounters Eddowes somewhere between the police station and Mitre Square. He solicits her services and this time things go more to plan.

After this weird night out, there is a pause and he re-thinks what he wants to do -- leading to Mary Jane Kelly. OR there is a bigger gap and he tries to start the cycle again with Alice McKenzie. Or some other factor comes into play which prevents further killings.

[Joshua Rogan]

Here is a less cluttered map showing the yard. Also slightly later, 1894 I think - it seems the wooden print room had been removed by then. Even so, it doesn't look like there's any access to the end of the yard except into, through or possibly over commercial buildings.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=20&lat=51.5138&lon=-0.0660&layers=163&b=1

[Abby Normal]

I'm loathe to assign different killers to Stride and Eddowes not because of any lost mystique or sensationalism, but solely due to the fact that I'd need two murderers when the timings and locations involved strongly allow for one.

But Stride still seems an odd one out...

So... here are some wild ideas off the top of my head, let's see if anything fails the laugh test --

The killer has been fatally targetting Whitechapel area prostitutes for at least a month, maybe nearly 2 months. He may have been violently targeting them earlier than that. He escapes detection, and appears to have a good command of the area. My gut here says that he's probably known prostitutes in the area for quite some time -- before all this violence started.

So I'm assuming there are some women working in the Whitechapel area he's become acquainted with, or at least knows by sight. I doubt he's just some guy who's pure as the driven snow and hasn't made any mental notes of the appearance and locations of his potential prey.

Over the course of months he'll know some faces.

So what if he knows Stride?

Either he's paid for her services before OR at the very least he knows her to
be working as a prostitute on occasion.

He passes her near Dutfield's yard.

He tries to solicit her services, and she tells him she's not on the game.
He gets pissed off and an assault ensues.

Since she's not on the game, she's not leading him to some secluded spot and she won't let him lead her off.

So he kills her there.

But one of two things or both go wrong

Either he knows Stride better than the other victims and it throws him more than he suspects

Or

He started off feeling Stride was fair game as a known prostitute, but she
wasn't actively working, so it feels wrong

He then leaves the scene but feels compelled to complete the urges he first had when he encountered Stride.

He walks away from the scene and encounters Eddowes somewhere between the police station and Mitre Square. He solicits her services and this time things go more to plan.

After this weird night out, there is a pause and he re-thinks what he wants to do -- leading to Mary Jane Kelly. OR there is a bigger gap and he tries to start the cycle again with Alice McKenzie. Or some other factor comes into play which prevents further killings.

not bad.
I think the night of the double event went more like this:

Stride has just broken up with Kidney. shes not out on the game looking for clients, shes out for a good time, maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfriend/sugar daddy.

she meets someone out in a pub, they hit it off, hes buying her drinks. Unfortunately its the ripper.

Hes trying to use his typical ruse of posing as a client, trying to get her to a secluded spot but shes not going for it. Playing it coy, hard to get if you will-shes looking for a boyfriend, not a trick. after several attempts hes starting to lose his patience.(this is where Marshal, maybe Brown see them).

There out in front of the club and hes still trying. The copper (PC Smith)walks past them and he goes for it one more time and gets rejected. he loses his patience, and storms off down the road, thinking hes just wasted time and money with her, temper gets the best of him and he whirls around and returns to her and attacks her in the street. (Schwartz)

she breaks free and runs to the yard toward the voices of the club and he catches her in the yard and cuts her throat and flees.

On his way away from the scene he noticed he got blood on his hands and stops and cleans them (church street sighting).

He continues on his way, not satisfied, looking for another victim and finds Eddowes.(Lawende and company) After he finishes with Eddowes he scampers to his bolt hole, but hes still pissed about all the interuptions, especially it being from those hated Jews, who he now thinks might just be soon giving the police his description.

so he cleans up, drops of his trophies and knife cleans up, and heads back out to write the GSG, signing it with the apron piece. In his mind, This not only will throw off the police, but gets back at all those bothersome jews that kept interrupting him.

The clincher, as Ive said many times, on this night, is that all the witnesses listed above describe a man with a peak cap. It ties it all together.

At the very least, marshall, Schwartz, and lawende all saw the ripper with his victims.
The ripper killed Stride and Eddowes.
The ripper wrote the GSG, mainly because of Scwartz, the "heavy appearance" looking jew interrupted/saw him.
The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the ripper.

Abberline thought the same. (see sig below).

Bam!

[StevenOwl]

not bad.
I think the night of the double event went more like this:

Stride has just broken up with Kidney. shes not out on the game looking for clients, shes out for a good time, maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfriend/sugar daddy.

she meets someone out in a pub, they hit it off, hes buying her drinks. Unfortunately its the ripper.

Hes trying to use his typical ruse of posing as a client, trying to get her to a secluded spot but shes not going for it. Playing it coy, hard to get if you will-shes looking for a boyfriend, not a trick. after several attempts hes starting to lose his patience.(this is where Marshal, maybe Brown see them).

There out in front of the club and hes still trying. The copper (PC Smith)walks past them and he goes for it one more time and gets rejected. he loses his patience, and storms off down the road, thinking hes just wasted time and money with her, temper gets the best of him and he whirls around and returns to her and attacks her in the street. (Schwartz)

she breaks free and runs to the yard toward the voices of the club and he catches her in the yard and cuts her throat and flees.

On his way away from the scene he noticed he got blood on his hands and stops and cleans them (church street sighting).

He continues on his way, not satisfied, looking for another victim and finds Eddowes.(Lawende and company) After he finishes with Eddowes he scampers to his bolt hole, but hes still pissed about all the interuptions, especially it being from those hated Jews, who he now thinks might just be soon giving the police his description.

so he cleans up, drops of his trophies and knife cleans up, and heads back out to write the GSG, signing it with the apron piece. In his mind, This not only will throw off the police, but gets back at all those bothersome jews that kept interrupting him.

The clincher, as Ive said many times, on this night, is that all the witnesses listed above describe a man with a peak cap. It ties it all together.

At the very least, marshall, Schwartz, and lawende all saw the ripper with his victims.
The ripper killed Stride and Eddowes.
The ripper wrote the GSG, mainly because of Scwartz, the "heavy appearance" looking jew interrupted/saw him.
The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the ripper.

Abberline thought the same. (see sig below).

Bam!

I find it hard to believe that a killer so calm and collected on at least 4 other occasions as to almost be considered phantom-like, would be so reckless in his public pursuit and murder of Stride.

[Michael W Richards]

The known data from the Stride investigation suggests that Liz was unaware she was in danger until the moment she had her scarf grabbed and tightened, and it also suggests she may have been cut before she hits the ground.

All the evidence suggests she was in the passageway when her attacker Blitz Krieged her, why she was there is not indicated within the known data. Its unlikely it was to solicit a club for customers that had an hour earlier let almost all of its occupants out. It was deserted on the street.

[Charles Daniels]

Here is a less cluttered map showing the yard. Also slightly later, 1894 I think - it seems the wooden print room had been removed by then. Even so, it doesn't look like there's any access to the end of the yard except into, through or possibly over commercial buildings.


http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

Cheers again!

Looking at these maps I've become a bit less swayed by the idea of there being all these sexy courts and passageways. Still trying to reconcile the Pall Mall Gazette account with these maps.

[Charles Daniels]

not bad.
I think the night of the double event went more like this
"Snip*
Bam!

Yeah! That sounds very interesting and puts some more meat on the bones of the scenario of how the killer might have encountered Stride and why it might have turned at the place where it did.

I'm extremely reluctant to attach too much weight to the GSG myself in any reckonings of the case, because it's very open to interpretation of what the message was and how linked it actually is. BUT I would say that your interpretation and use of it is much better than many other interpretations I've read before.

My personal take on it is that it's an angry cockney saying that the Jews well not acknowledge responsibility or blame where due. So a pissed off local complaining about a shopping experience is my best guess right now. But I could be miles off or comically out of date in my thinking there

[Michael W Richards]

Heres an idea that Ive floated here with little traction gained, but I believe it makes more sense than many guesses and it uses the evidence...Kates killer was aware that Socialist Jews were denying anything to do with Liz's murder and trying to pass the blame on the "mad" killer at large....."another woman has been killed" was yelled by the club members. It ticked him off...maybe an anti Semite, so he decides to drop the apron carrying the organs from Mitre Square right outside a major concentration of Jewish Immigrants at the Model Homes and writes a message suggesting the Jews will not accept blame for anything.

The senior investigators saw it as inflammatory towards Jews in a primarily Jewish neighborhood, so why are we discussing a message interpretation that is supportive of Jews.

[Abby Normal]

I find it hard to believe that a killer so calm and collected on at least 4 other occasions as to almost be considered phantom-like, would be so reckless in his public pursuit and murder of Stride.

Hi owl
I agree. But he was human, not a phantom. not a robot. his temper simply got the best of him this time.

[Abby Normal]

Yeah! That sounds very interesting and puts some more meat on the bones of the scenario of how the killer might have encountered Stride and why it might have turned at the place where it did.

I'm extremely reluctant to attach too much weight to the GSG myself in any reckonings of the case, because it's very open to interpretation of what the message was and how linked it actually is. BUT I would say that your interpretation and use of it is much better than many other interpretations I've read before.

My personal take on it is that it's an angry cockney saying that the Jews well not acknowledge responsibility or blame where due. So a pissed off local complaining about a shopping experience is my best guess right now. But I could be miles off or comically out of date in my thinking there

thanks Charles
you could very well be right. I just see it the other way. it all ties together.
the reluctance of Stride, pissed off broad shouldered man, being spotted by jews, the peaked cap, the wording of the GSG.etc.

[c.d.]

"The senior investigators saw it as inflammatory towards Jews in a primarily Jewish neighborhood, so why are we discussing a message interpretation that is supportive of Jews."

Hello Michael,

The answer would be because unless the senior investigators wrote it themselves they are only guessing at its meaning just like us. Also because the wording can be interpreted as pro-Jewish and it is human nature to fire back when an individual or group is insulted.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Its unlikely it was to solicit a club for customers that had an hour earlier let almost all of its occupants out. It was deserted on the street."

Hello Michael,

Exactly how many customers would she be planning on servicing? I would think one or two would suffice so a full club was not necessary.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi owl
I agree. But he was human, not a phantom. not a robot. his temper simply got the best of him this time.

Hello Abby,

This is certainly possible but if so he let his temper override common sense since he had already been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. If he simply walked away at that point all he is guilty of is pushing a woman to the ground. Hardly a capital offense and one that could easily be explained away if need be.

c.d.

[Charles Daniels]

I find it hard to believe that a killer so calm and collected on at least 4 other occasions as to almost be considered phantom-like, would be so reckless in his public pursuit and murder of Stride.

Well there's definitely something odd going on with Stride.
The thing is I have to accept that something went rather strangely with Stride -

Because we know that after the crime, the killer left the scene.

If we assume the killer could walk in any direction, and treat all potential directions as equally likely -- then I have to notice that if he happened to walk in the direction of Bishopsgate, he will have arrived at exactly the same time Eddowes would be walking in that area. Looking at maps of the area and timings, the only conclusion I can arrive at personally is that we have a continuation of violence from the same killer.

This also gives us an interesting bonus, in that we can extend our tracking of the murderers movements from Dutfield's Yard, to Mitre Square, to Goulston Street. Since we don't have a third murder, that seems to suggest the killer was going somewhere safe for them, and indicates the vague direction where that safety would be.

From my personal viewpoint, the Stride case is very interesting because we have the killer going off script as it were. Something isn't quite the same here.