Dutfield's Yard & Berner St. 3D

[richardh]

We have no estimation where the grate in the club wall was.

We have HDY to show where the grating was don't we? And that photograph shows the grating to be at least 10ft into the yard. Maybe the chap standing next to the right-side gate is hiding another grating?

EDIT: According to HDY and the 3D model, the cellar grating is 18ft into the yard.

[richardh]

Revised body position for consideration: (ignore the wagon wheel - I know it wasn't there in 1900 but I'm using it for a sun/shadow test)

[Pcdunn]

I think the revised image makes sense with the information of the cart driver that "the pony stopped and would not enter the yard."

But then there is the cellar grating, with evidence of its position... I don't envy you the task of reconciling all the sources in your wonderful images, but I do appreciate the time and work you put into them.

[Wickerman]

We have HDY to show where the grating was don't we? And that photograph shows the grating to be at least 10ft into the yard. Maybe the chap standing next to the right-side gate is hiding another grating?

EDIT: According to HDY and the 3D model, the cellar grating is 18ft into the yard.

I think there are two grates along that wall. The first very close to the opened edge of the gate (shown on p.60 in Phils book, and perhaps hidden by the mans legs on pg.55), the second closer to the door.
Sadly, no contemporary sketch shows two grates in that wall.

[Wickerman]

Thanks!
The area with the toilets is sort of artistic license, but I must have read somewhere that there was a privy or something like it in that space. There is certainly a space between the back of the No. 42 and the cottages.

The recess with the two shelves - That's a doorway of the club. The two shelve looking things are there because that's what they look like in HDY. Have a look at HDY and look for the two cats in the doorway just beyond the cellar ventilation grate. To be honest I haven't a clue what they are but they are there because HDY shows them. Reckon the doorway was indeed sealed-up at the time HDY was taken.

Maybe someone can offer an explanation?

Richard.
Thankyou for that, I had not noticed this before.
In those days some doors had a window pane above the door, and often this type of window tilted inwards at the top when a cord was pulled down inside the house.
I think that upper most bottom edge we see is not a shelf but the lower edge of a tilted window.

As for the lower 'shelf', if you compare both shadows on that door frame, only the shadow beneath the upper 'shelf' (lower edge of a window), is angled as it should be if the shadow is created by the Sun.

This is not the case with the lower shadow, for some reason (if it is indeed a shadow), it appears to extend all the way down well beyond the depth that should be apparent if it is created by a shelf.

It's hard to say why this section of the door frame is black, but it extends too far down to be a shadow.

[Dr. John Watson]

I think the revised image makes sense with the information of the cart driver that "the pony stopped and would not enter the yard."

But then there is the cellar grating, with evidence of its position... I don't envy you the task of reconciling all the sources in your wonderful images, but I do appreciate the time and work you put into them.

I think you're wrong about the pony. As I recollect, according to Diemschutz's testimony, his pony shied to the left as he entered the yard, but continued on, the pony stopping near the club entrance.

John

[Dr. John Watson]

Excellent job as usual, Richard. Regarding position of the body, the first PC at the scene stated that Stride's head was 5-6 inches from the wall of the club and that her feet extended just to the edge of the open gate, but that he was able to close the gate without disturbing the body because "they went just behind it."

John

[Joshua Rogan]

In those days some doors had a window pane above the door, and often this type of window tilted inwards at the top when a cord was pulled down inside the house.
I think that upper most bottom edge we see is not a shelf but the lower edge of a tilted window

I haven't got access t the photo, but William Wess seems to confirm there was indeed a window above the door;

"In the kitchen is a window which faces the door opening into the yard. The intervening passage is illuminated by means of a fanlight over the door."

[richardh]

Am I right in saying that the original road (before 1909) was narrower and the buildings were positioned more forward (into the road) than they are today?
I've been looking at maps and plans and lots of other stuff which suggest the position of 'Old' Berner St. is something like in the image below:

The RED dot signifies where (i think) Dutfield's Yard opening was located.

[Wickerman]

I haven't got access t the photo, but William Wess seems to confirm there was indeed a window above the door;

"In the kitchen is a window which faces the door opening into the yard. The intervening passage is illuminated by means of a fanlight over the door."

Thankyou Joshua.

I couldn't find a pic. of the window I described, but this would offer the same protruding lower frame.

[Wickerman]

Ah, a happy coincidence...

Gary Barnett posted this image on JTRForums, which just happens to show fan-light windows that tilt in at the top and out at the bottom, they pivot (swing) on a pin, rather than being hinged.

[richardh]

Here's a 1945 aerial shot of the Berner St. area. Showing the Goods Dept in Gower Walk.
RED dot marks Dutfield's Yard:



And with Goad's Overlay:



Not sure if this is useful!