c3 or not?

[anna]

Hi everyone,
Dan has an interesting 3,as it were.I'd put the usual,but having looked at his three,he's given me something to think about.
Fisherman,looks like we are thinking along the same lines with Stride.
I think Stride was the partner who felt more for the other,possibly why she was trying to impress him,with fresh breath etc..
Many women return to an abusive partner,perhaps for reassurance,stability,
maybe in this "autumn of terror",the feeling that there was someone close to protect her.He sees her standing there,and either feels angry at that moment,or maybe she says something that angers him......but,
The distance in time between Stride and Eddowes is close,and the GSG comes into this aswell..... ideal for Stride's partner that Eddowes is killed by Jack,and his crime is included in Jack's 5..he would have got away with it,with Jack taking the blame...
but would Jack have allowed this..would he not have written to the police and taunted them that his handywork was more intricate than just a cut to the throat.....I don't see him being too pleased that someone else had interferred(as I think he would have seen it)in what he considered was his?

[anna]

Dan,
I just think Kelly's treated differently because of the amount of mutilation that was performed on her,and the fact that she is the only one of the 5 that we have actual pictures of,that show the scene as Jack left it.
Also the only one that hasn't got a mortuary picture aswell...so there's no "clean up job".
Personally,I don't find anything "romantic" about her at all.I am suprised that a woman that has the reputation of pulling out a rivals hair,being abusive and loud when drunk(and she was supposed to be drunk at the time),and holds the nickname "Black Mary",goes out in complete silence apart from the supposed "Oh Murder",whether sleeping or not,I'd epect her to have been able to react to trouble in a second(I'm sure she'd had to have done this with customers in the past)so a quick reaction would be second nature to her.
Anna.

[Fisherman]

Anna writes:

"...ideal for Stride's partner that Eddowes is killed by Jack..."

...and the way I see things, that is spot on, Anna. Has there ever been similar circumstances anywhere, anytime, allowing for someone to get away with a murder performed in such a common manner; a simple cut to the throat? There were a couple of Carte Blanche months to prey on for those interested in throatcutting that autumn!

As for "I don't see him being too pleased that someone else had interferred(as I think he would have seen it)in what he considered was his?", I think we know far too little about our man to establish what exact type he was and what the deeds meant to him. They MAY of course have meant a way for him to express his superiority - but they may just as well have been the result of delusions and fear on his behalf.

When it comes to the matter of comparing the c3 to the c5, isnīt it about time we introduce the c4 - Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly - given the vast amount of comparable details inbetween the deeds?
Those who are familiar with my earlier posts on the matter will know that I count five victims, including Tabram but not Stride, but there is little use denying that Tabramīs death was in many a fashion unsimilar to the "c4". I put that down to inexperience on behalf of a fledgling Ripper, though. In the end, I really believe Tabram belongs to the tally, but thatīs for another thread.

The best,

Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

When it comes to the matter of comparing the c3 to the c5, isnīt it about time we introduce the c4 - Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly - given the vast amount of comparable details inbetween the deeds?
Those who are familiar with my earlier posts on the matter will know that I count five victims, including Tabram but not Stride, but there is little use denying that Tabramīs death was in many a fashion unsimilar to the "c4". I put that down to inexperience on behalf of a fledgling Ripper, though. In the end, I really believe Tabram belongs to the tally, but thatīs for another thread.
Fisherman

Good to have you back, Fisherman !!

I support your C4, and I agree with you on Tabram and Stride ( yes, I have had a turn around re: Liz),but not enough similarities to include her in a C5 .....yet !!

[Jon Guy]

I support your C4, and I agree with you on Tabram and Stride ( yes, I have had a turn around re: Liz),but not enough similarities to include her in a C5 .....yet !!

not enough to include Martha, I meant !!

[Jon Guy]

Dan,
I just think Kelly's treated differently because of the amount of mutilation that was performed on her,and the fact that she is the only one of the 5 that we have actual pictures of,that show the scene as Jack left it.
Also the only one that hasn't got a mortuary picture aswell...so there's no "clean up job".
Anna.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, Anna.

For me, it was a good twelve years from first been absorbed in the case that I actually got to see the infamous Kelly crime scene. Because of this I have never seen her as special or different. I was only eleven when I first read about her, so again, at 25 years old Kelly seemed ancient to me anyway.

I may be wrong but I reckon anyone who got into the case before the photos were available to the public has a different perspective of Kelly ?

[Fisherman]

Hi Jon, and thanks!

It is good to be back; I sidetracked to Turkey vacationwise for two weeks, and since it was 35-38 degrees Celsius down there, it was too warm to think. So Casebook offers a welcome change in that respect!

Seems weīre very much agreed upon the list of victims. I second your opinion that Tabrams case does not involve enough hard facts to include her in a reconstructed c5 - but just like you seem to think, my hunch is that is where she truly belongs.

All the best, Jon!

Fisherman

[anna]

Hi Jon,
I have often wondered if there was a mortuary picture of Kelly,but it has been lost in time.It would seem strange that they did this for the others,and not in her case.Even if not released,on police records.
There is also the morbid,morkish factor to add to it also.
Isn't it strange that they didn't take photo's of all of the victims in situ?
ANNA.

[anna]

Fisherman,I hadn't thought of taking Stride out and putting Tabram in her place....thanks for giving me something to think about...
the problem is of course,we can go on taking things out,adding things in..
probably the same conundrum as the police had at the time..
With the case of Stride with just the throat cut.It must have presented them with a headache.Having counted her in amongst the C5,how on earth were they going to deal with what to put down to Jack,and what not to put down to Jack.....I've read here of some talk of 11 victims,the tally could have been endless with the amount of violent crime that was happening in the LVP.
Anna.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Jon,
I have often wondered if there was a mortuary picture of Kelly,but it has been lost in time.It would seem strange that they did this for the others,and not in her case.Even if not released,on police records.
There is also the morbid,morkish factor to add to it also.
Isn't it strange that they didn't take photo's of all of the victims in situ?
ANNA.

Hi anna,

Well, we have to remember that the purpose of the morgue photos was to help identify the victims, not to record forensic evidence as it is today.
The Metropolitan police obviously didn't have a clue about that it might be important to take photos in situe on the crime scene, and this wouldn't really be that unsual in 1888. To take a photo of the crime scene was most likely not something they'd even consider in those days.

The first real change we see is in the morgue photos of Eddowes, that were done on behalf of the City police (not the Metropolitan police). There we can see a new appraoch, with pictures meant to record the wounds rather than identifying the victim.
No doubt the City police - who had followed the struggles of the Metropolitan police and were quite good prepared - were more up to date with modern methods and were able to think ahead, outside the box, so to speak.
The next step would obviously be to take a photo of the victim in situe, and we know that the City police were also involved on the crime scene of the Kelly murder. It has been suggested that it was the City police who ordered to the photograph to be taken, and personally I think it's a fair analysis.

It is indeed an intriguing though that there might exist a Kelly photograph out there from the morgue taken after she was pitched up. But on the other hand, the victim was already was identified so they just simply may have decided that it wasn't worth the hassle. Their priority may have been taking a photo on the crime scene since that was the one that would provide the most relevant clues.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Jon,
I have often wondered if there was a mortuary picture of Kelly,but it has been lost in time.It would seem strange that they did this for the others,and not in her case.Even if not released,on police records.
There is also the morbid,morkish factor to add to it also.
Isn't it strange that they didn't take photo's of all of the victims in situ?
ANNA.

Martha Tabram does not belong in either the c5, c6 or c3.
There are absolutely no similarities between her murder and the Ripper killings - she was stabbed 39 times, her throat wasn't cut and she wasn't mutilated. Not to mention the fact that ther murder occurred only three weeks earluer than Nichols' and still is fundamentally different, with the only similarity being the choice of victim - a victim which engaged in one of the most danerous occupations both now and in those days.
It is an insane idea, to say the least. She was obviously killed by a pshychoic client, and the two murderer's profile are fundamentally different. It's pure nonsense from beginning to end.

All the best

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,
I have often wondered if there was a mortuary picture of Kelly,but it has been lost in time.It would seem strange that they did this for the others,and not in her case.Even if not released,on police records.
There is also the morbid,morkish factor to add to it also.
Isn't it strange that they didn't take photo's of all of the victims in situ?
ANNA.

Hi Anna

To add to Glenn` comments, I don`t think they then had the facility to take photos at night. The City Surveyor was called in to map the area and to draw Eddowes in situ at Mitre Sq before the body was moved, and they had to wait till light if they wanted photo the G.S.G. The Kelly photo was possible as the body was discovered during the day, and there was no rush to remove the body from the crime scene.

[Jon Guy]

Martha Tabram does not belong in either the c5, c6 or c3.
There are absolutely no similarities between her murder and the Ripper killings - she was stabbed 39 times, her throat wasn't cut and she wasn't mutilated. Not to mention the fact that ther murder occurred only three weeks earluer than Nichols' and still is fundamentally different, with the only similarity being the choice of victim - a victim which engaged in one of the most danerous occupations both now and in those days.
It is an insane idea, to say the least. She was obviously killed by a pshychoic client, and the two murderer's profile are fundamentally different. It's pure nonsense from beginning to end.
All the best

Good evening, Glenn

I respect your thoughts on the matter, but, in my opinion, when dead middle aged prostitutes start appearing in the vicinity over a short period of time, with their clothes turned up to the waist and victims of an over the top knife attack with signs of strangulation.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Anna

To add to Glenn` comments, I don`t think they then had the facility to take photos at night. The City Surveyor was called in to map the area and to draw Eddowes in situ at Mitre Sq before the body was moved, and they had to wait till light if they wanted photo the G.S.G. The Kelly photo was possible as the body was discovered during the day, and there was no rush to remove the body from the crime scene.

Jon,

A very good point.
However, I think one can assess from the attitude of the Metropolitan police in general that they probably wouldn't have come up with the idea even if it was sparkling sunlight. But just my view.
Besides, at this desperat stage of the Ripper hysteria it appears as if the police finally realized that unusual extraordinary measures was needed. Isn't the photo in Miller's Court the first real crime scene photo in Britain, or am I incorrect?

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Good evening, Glenn

I respect your thoughts on the matter, but, in my opinion, when dead middle aged prostitutes start appearing in the vicinity over a short period of time, with their clothes turned up to the waist and victims of an over the top knife attack with signs of strangulation.

Good evening, Jon.

Well, I assume most vagrant women indulging in part-time prostitution in the East End were middle age anyway.
As I said, prostitution was - and still is - one of the most dangerous occupations, and it would only be a matter of time before something like this happened. Overkill by knife is certainly nothing unusual in connection with prostitute murders, even if it was seldom heard of in those days. But it had to happen sooner or later, and past that there is really no similarities whatsoever between Tabram's murder and the one done on Nichols only three weeks later. And then of course we have PC Barrett's account of meeting a soldier close to the scene of the crime at the right time.

In my view, Tabram was killed by a sadistic client, where a deal had gone wrong, and that the perpetrator most likely was a solder. Most certainly not the Ripper. However, it's quite possible that it was the news of this murder that might have triggered him into finally putting his fantasies into action.

As for strangulation: although it appears as such on the photo we must remember that there is no such indication in Killeen's report. Nor can we be sure of that all of the Ripper victims were subjected to asphyxiation.

All the best