Watkins walking along his beat towards Eddowes

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Because this sort of technology isn't my thing exactly.. I need a little help from some more knowledgable persons than I.

This thread refers to PC Watkins beat towards Eddowes. I could have put it on the Police thread.. but chose the Eddowes thread as I am trying to connect something to the murder. Time.

Now we know that the time of the murder puts very little time in the murderer's hands to MISS a patrolling policeman in Mitre Square.

1. PC Watkins states he last visited the Square at 1.30 and all was clear. Taking the time into account.. he would have left Mitre Square at the very earliest 01.30am and 20 secs. (walk in time.. shine light around.. turn.. and walk out..estimated 20 secs..seems fair to me.)

2. This leaves the man 14mins and 40 secs to go around on his beat once again in order to enter the Square at 01.45am as he states.

3. A night time patrolling poiceman of that time walks at 2.1/2mph (thank you Monty)

4. Unless my mathematics is out.. and please check it for me if you can, I work out that BEFORE Watkins re-enters the Square, the following is to be observed, considering the above speed. Nothing of course is exact.. but a fairly good idea is here..

a) 1 minute away from the Square, at 01.44am, he is 66 yards away
b) 1 minute 30 secs from the Square he is almost exactly 100 yards away
c) 2 mins away, at 01.43am, he is 132 yards away.
d) 2mins 30 secs away, he is 165 yards away.
e) 3 mins away, at 01.42, he is 198 yards away.
f) 4 mins away, at 01.41am, 264 yards away.
g) 5 mins away, at 01.40am, he is 330 yards away.
h) 6 mins away, at 01.39am, he is 396 yards away.
i) 7 mins away, at 01.38am, he is 462 yards away.
j) 7min 30 secs away, at 01.37, 30, he is half way around his beat. He is 495 yards away. This is the furthest point away from the murder scene Watkins is, according to time allowed and a speed of 2.1/2 mph.
So far so good.

However. Not having a map of said beat route, and not having a precise measurement of the whole route, it is difficult to assess exactly where Watkins was at any given point.

So if anyone has this information, (forgive my ignorance on the subject, I may have missed the info if already on the site) and can fill in where, exactly according to the above times Watkins was a-j, at any one time, it would help my understanding.

Also, I kindly ask if anyone actually knows the real total distance of Watkins' route?

That way it can be worked out with greater accuracy the exact position he was at when the murderer was in Mitre Square.

Because according to the above, and the speed of a PC's beat route, his total route would not be more than 924 yards all around from start to finish.

Of course this does not allow for anything to have happened en route, I agree, but in this case he states that nothing DID happen that evening. So it is fair to gather that his beat was unbroken..at least after 1.15am if his testimony be correct.

If the actual beat is less than 924 yards in total, it may help us to find some answers of sorts.
If more.. it is simple....the 2.1/2mph rate is not possible.

I appreciate the effort involved in helping with this, and am most grateful for any contributions. :-)



Phil

[Scott Nelson]

This may not be what you need Ed, but here's a reconstruction I did a few years ago:

1:28:30 Harvey checks Post Office clock between Duke St. and Houndsditch on Aldgate-High St., he then proceeds north on Houndsditch.
1:30:00 Watkins in Mitre Square - all is quiet.
1:31:30 Watkins heading northwest on Mitre Street between carriage-way entrance and King Street; Harvey at Houndsditch and Gravel Lane.
1:33:00 Watkins about to enter St. James Place; Harvey in Little Duke Street.*
1:34:00 Watkins looking down the St. James Passage into Mitre Square as he makes the turn back north. Harvey back on Houndsditch, still proceeding north.
1:34:30 Watkins leaves St. James Place via Creechurch Lane. Lawende, Levy and Harris pass man and woman at entrance to Church Passage on Duke Street. Harvey nearing junction to Goring Street.
1:36:00 Watkins opposite Bevis Market Synagogue on Hennage Lane heading southwest; Harvey proceeding south on Bevis Marks after walking west on Goring Street.
1:37:00 Harvey heading southeast on Bevis Marks at corner with Bury Street.
1:37:30 Watkins on Hennage Lane just before the corner to Bury Street, moving southwest.
1:38:00 Harvey moving southeast at corner of Bevis Marks and Hennage Lane (he misses Watkins by one and a half minutes).
1:39:00 Watkins on Creechurch Lane at Leadenhall Street heading south. Harvey turns around on Little Duke Street after walking as far as Houndsditch and heads west on the opposite side of the street and comes to the corner with the main thoroughfare of Duke Street, facing St. James Place.**
1:41:30 Watkins on Leadenhall St, heading east towards the junction with Aldgate-High St. Harvey at the bottom of Church Passage facing Mitre Square - sees and hears nothing.
1:43:00 Watkins turns corner northwest onto Mitre Street.
1:44:00 Watkins in front of Taylor's shop on Mitre Street (footsteps may be audible in Square at this point).
1:44:30 Watkins finds body. Harvey has gone south on Duke Street after emerging from the Church Passage. He has turned west on Aldgate and gotten as far as Mitre Street and turns to go back.
1:45:00 Watkins alerts Morris, they examine the body together, and Morris sent to fetch assistance.
1:45:30 Morris finds Harvey on Aldgate-High Street between Jewry Street and the Minories.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I assume you saw this animation already?

http://www.casebook.org/police_officials/po-edward_watkins.html

[Monty]

Watkins inquest testimony.

"Edward Watkin, No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning."

You cannot assess with precision where Watkins was at any given point due to a number of factors such as marking, fastening issues, breaks, beat sergeant reporting and so on.

Monty

[Scott Nelson]

Did you tell Gavin Bromley that as well?

[Jeff Leahy]

Given that it is unlikely that either Watkins or Harvey were MacNaughtens witness

Their beats are surely irrelevant?

What we require is who was on watch in Mitre street and Algate street on the night of the eddows murder?

Yours Jeff

[Monty]

No Scottt,

As I was unaware at the time.

We do Jeff,

PCs Robinson, Harvey and Holland.

Monty

[Jeff Leahy]

No Scottt,

As I was unaware at the time.

We do Jeff,

PCs Robinson, Harvey and Holland.

Monty

Hi Monty

Trusting you are well..

Surely there must have been more than three City police officers on that night?

and during the day for that matter...isnt Robinson on earlier in the evening?

We know Harvey doesn't see anything or a witness but both Simm and MacNaughten claim there was a City PC witness...

If they said that sure that is what happened?

Is there any reliable information about the City PC beats, there routes, and times they came on and off the night of Eddows murder

I would be very grateful if you could possibly piont me in the correct direction?

It could be important

Many thanks

Yours Jeff

[Monty]

You said around Aldgate Jefff,

Watkins, Holland and Harvey at the time Eddowes was killed, Robinson and Simmons on the evening beat

Monty

[Jeff Leahy]

You said around Aldgate Jefff,

Watkins, Holland and Harvey at the time Eddowes was killed, Robinson and Simmons on the evening beat

Monty

Hi Monty

Realize this is late...

But how many City PC's were on duty that night and do we know their various patrol routes

I guess This is the point that I should order your book...does it cover this info?

Jx

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello all,

Because this sort of technology isn't my thing exactly.. I need a little help from some more knowledgable persons than I.

This thread refers to PC Watkins beat towards Eddowes. I could have put it on the Police thread.. but chose the Eddowes thread as I am trying to connect something to the murder. Time.

Now we know that the time of the murder puts very little time in the murderer's hands to MISS a patrolling policeman in Mitre Square.

1. PC Watkins states he last visited the Square at 1.30 and all was clear. Taking the time into account.. he would have left Mitre Square at the very earliest 01.30am and 20 secs. (walk in time.. shine light around.. turn.. and walk out..estimated 20 secs..seems fair to me.)

2. This leaves the man 14mins and 40 secs to go around on his beat once again in order to enter the Square at 01.45am as he states.

3. A night time patrolling poiceman of that time walks at 2.1/2mph (thank you Monty)

4. Unless my mathematics is out.. and please check it for me if you can, I work out that BEFORE Watkins re-enters the Square, the following is to be observed, considering the above speed. Nothing of course is exact.. but a fairly good idea is here..

a) 1 minute away from the Square, at 01.44am, he is 66 yards away
b) 1 minute 30 secs from the Square he is almost exactly 100 yards away
c) 2 mins away, at 01.43am, he is 132 yards away.
d) 2mins 30 secs away, he is 165 yards away.
e) 3 mins away, at 01.42, he is 198 yards away.
f) 4 mins away, at 01.41am, 264 yards away.
g) 5 mins away, at 01.40am, he is 330 yards away.
h) 6 mins away, at 01.39am, he is 396 yards away.
i) 7 mins away, at 01.38am, he is 462 yards away.
j) 7min 30 secs away, at 01.37, 30, he is half way around his beat. He is 495 yards away. This is the furthest point away from the murder scene Watkins is, according to time allowed and a speed of 2.1/2 mph.
So far so good.

However. Not having a map of said beat route, and not having a precise measurement of the whole route, it is difficult to assess exactly where Watkins was at any given point.

So if anyone has this information, (forgive my ignorance on the subject, I may have missed the info if already on the site) and can fill in where, exactly according to the above times Watkins was a-j, at any one time, it would help my understanding.

Also, I kindly ask if anyone actually knows the real total distance of Watkins' route?

That way it can be worked out with greater accuracy the exact position he was at when the murderer was in Mitre Square.

Because according to the above, and the speed of a PC's beat route, his total route would not be more than 924 yards all around from start to finish.

Of course this does not allow for anything to have happened en route, I agree, but in this case he states that nothing DID happen that evening. So it is fair to gather that his beat was unbroken..at least after 1.15am if his testimony be correct.

If the actual beat is less than 924 yards in total, it may help us to find some answers of sorts.
If more.. it is simple....the 2.1/2mph rate is not possible.

I appreciate the effort involved in helping with this, and am most grateful for any contributions. :-)

Phil

Phil , I'll save you the misery. Watkins wasn't MacNaughtens PC witness

However it seems probable their was one

Yours Jeff

[Rosella]

Wasn't there a suggestion, if I remember rightly by Donald Rumbelow, that Watkins was in the habit of having a cuppa with the warehouse watchman George Morris at the Kearly and Tonge warehouse? It would be rather ironic if in fact he'd just stepped outside the warehouse after enjoying his tea and was confronted with the dead Kate.

[Penhalion]

The 'having a cuppa' possibility makes sense of quite a bit of the Eddowes murder. It makes sense in terms of a beat cop having a bit of warmth and sociability with a former cop and it also explains why things could have happened in Mitre Square without the beat cop being aware. And if there's a whiff of cover up, it could be just that poor cop trying to cover his butt for breaking protocol and having it backfire in the worst possible way.

[Phil Carter]

Watkins inquest testimony.

"Edward Watkin, No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning."

You cannot assess with precision where Watkins was at any given point due to a number of factors such as marking, fastening issues, breaks, beat sergeant reporting and so on.

Monty

Thank you Monty for this.. just something I noticed. .The final sentence. .
"I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning. "

What happened after one o'clock on Sunday morning to prevent Watkins from patrolling his beat continually thereafter?"
He was on the beat again at 01.30am etc. At Mitre Square, No?


Phil

[Dr. John Watson]

Jeff, just out of curiosity, how do you know "Watkins wasn't MacNaughtens PC witness?"

John