Piece of Apron and the 'Juwes'

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Natalie, my feeling is that what Jack did was to him like us frying eggs, easy over, sunnyside up or down?
Then he started reading newspapers, and realised that what he was doing was just a tad unsocial, so he attempted to address that issue with words rather than events.
As he always did.
'The gentleman has fallen down the stairs' syndrome I call it.
If he didn't trip then the Jews must have pushed him.

[Sam Flynn]

Or....possibly it WAS the Duke of Clarence and because he had been "over potty trained"as a very young infant he just loved any opportunity to brown his cuffs....

That's quite probably the most believable defence of Prince Eddy's candidature I've ever read, Nats Adds a whole new meaning to "Brown Windsor Soup"

[Natalie Severn]

Quite right, Natalie, he could have just been 'laying women down', couldn't he?
And then wondering what all the fuss was about.
But mind you he would have left his written word wherever he could.
As you know, in the Dyer case, the young brother and sister blamed the Jews for their situation - there was no situation, we know that - but the Jews had to take the blame, for who else would?
The Catholics?
One lesson I learn't a long time ago is that serial killers of the ilk of Jack are shape shifters, they kill without hesitation or let, but always want to shift the shape and blame onto a familiar bogey man.
From their vague and illusive image they conjure up - in the form of letters, words and images - the most concrete shape of their age, a sort of Voodoo doll in which all can stick their pins in some sort of communial bleeding process.
The deed has been done, and then the killer seeks to undo the deed, by shape shifting.
Some kinda magic that; and the majority here endorse his actions.

That is most definitely more to my way of thinking AP And seriously so.I am more than able to see Jack the Ripper believing he possessed magical powers-all that silent stealthly killing -------and then the strange ceremony of the "disembowelling" in dark corners of Whitechapel but usually under the wide and starry skies!

[Natalie Severn]

...ah, but then why didn't he? No excrement was reported smeared over any of the clothing found on her person - the only smearing of fæcal matter reported was that over her intestines and, later, on the swatch of apron found in Goulston Street.

As to his loving the ooze, I honestly don't think he'd banked on it, Jon.

It all smacks of "What's that there? Holy cr.... it's all over me 'ands! Jesus! Gotta shift it somehow..." << Chlup, chlup >> [ ← sound of cacky hand flopping back and forth on intestines ] "Oh, this is feckin' hopeless! No time to..."

Or....possibly it WAS the Duke of Clarence and because he had been "over potty trained"as a very young infant he just loved any opportunity to brown his cuffs....maybe thats what all the rumour boiled down to....Prince Eddy"s need to get down and dirty and revel in it.Dont forget that although he was reported to have had "learning difficulties" ,there was at least one area in which he excelled and was expert ie in "dressing the deer" that that had been shot on those estates.His disembowelling of deer was in fact second to none--- which was possibly why he always sported that deer stalker hat in photographs,as an official badge,so to speak.So its just possible,the murders were some kind of catharsis to do with "disembowelling" and early potty training!

[Cap'n Jack]

Quite right, Natalie, he could have just been 'laying women down', couldn't he?
And then wondering what all the fuss was about.
But mind you he would have left his written word wherever he could.
As you know, in the Dyer case, the young brother and sister blamed the Jews for their situation - there was no situation, we know that - but the Jews had to take the blame, for who else would?
The Catholics?
One lesson I learn't a long time ago is that serial killers of the ilk of Jack are shape shifters, they kill without hesitation or let, but always want to shift the shape and blame onto a familiar bogey man.
From their vague and illusive image they conjure up - in the form of letters, words and images - the most concrete shape of their age, a sort of Voodoo doll in which all can stick their pins in some sort of communial bleeding process.
The deed has been done, and then the killer seeks to undo the deed, by shape shifting.
Some kinda magic that; and the majority here endorse his actions.

[Sam Flynn]

I agree that the bottom line is time pressure. I just feel that cutting the apron would take more time than wiping his hands on Kates clothes...

...ah, but then why didn't he? No excrement was reported smeared over any of the clothing found on her person - the only smearing of fæcal matter reported was that over her intestines and, later, on the swatch of apron found in Goulston Street.

As to his loving the ooze, I honestly don't think he'd banked on it, Jon.

It all smacks of "What's that there? Holy cr.... it's all over me 'ands! Jesus! Gotta shift it somehow..." << Chlup, chlup >> [ ← sound of cacky hand flopping back and forth on intestines ] "Oh, this is feckin' hopeless! No time to..."

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Natalie,

I have never bought that kind of argument, because with that you can 'explain' anything and support the weirdest scenarios.
It just won't do, as far as I am concerned

He may have been a wacko, but that doesn't explain why he takes the time to scribble it in a neat schoolboy's hand and with small letters while leaving a crime scene instead of blurting it out when he had the chance. Nor do I understand the point in blaming te Jews if he wanted to make a mark and 'sign' his latest crime. The writing appear to be anti-Jewish but that's about it. Needless to say, such writings would hardly be surprising in such a densed populated Jewish area with high antisemtic tension.
Since there is absolutely nothing in the content of the writing that even as much as points towards a crime of any kind, I conclude that it was a mere coincdence and that the writing was already there when he dropped the apron.

All the best

Thanks Glenn,
But the problem here for me is precisely to do with how Jack perceived his
killings.I do not believe that he considered them as "crimes" at all.Ofcourse he knew very well that most other people saw the murders as "crimes", but that was not his concern.He was a lone wolf in that respect.
However,it may well have concerned him,and affected his "pride in accomplishment", if the two murders were considered to be the work of "Jews"--when he knew they were not to blame for them at all---and moreover the Jews were not going to be "credited" with them either-if you see what I mean.
Best

[c.d.]

...the "bottom" line. Ha Ha.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

"Number two" - another pun?
Time pressure, and the "crunch... crunch" of an approaching bobby's boots, perhaps. Under such circumstances, I can imagine Jack, realising that the vile ooze clinging to his fingers would need more than a few swipes to remove, decided to cut - the apron - and run.

Puns ? Me, Sam ?

I agree that the bottom line is time pressure. I just feel that cutting the apron would take more time than wiping his hands on Kates clothes,and possibly noisier in an echoey square.

Would the ooze be that "vile" to our boy ?
He loves the stuff, sticking is hands in there ?

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

You best be prepared to defend your theory. You don't want to be caught with your pants down.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Very clever indeed, Sam, probably number two on my list of plausible explanations.

"Number two" - another pun?

I just don`t see the problem with him wiping his hands clean on the layers of cloth that lay before him ?

Time pressure, and the "crunch... crunch" of an approaching bobby's boots, perhaps. Under such circumstances, I can imagine Jack, realising that the vile ooze clinging to his fingers would need more than a few swipes to remove, decided to cut - the apron - and run.

[joelhall]

I just read through five cases at the Old Bailey where murderers wiped their weapons on the aprons of their victims.

and did they take an improvised sheath with them?

or try to clean their weapon by wiping it on someones insides?

this does sound a little far-fetched.

guess ill do the pooh-poohing because the first thing someone would likely do with this on their hand would be the quickest way of removal... using the victims clothes as a cloth straight away, rather than cutting some off. if this were the case hed most likely have cleaned it off and ditched the rag straight away.

[Jon Guy]

...or mount a smear campaign.

Thanks for the support, though, CD Ditto for the kind words, Glenn.

Very clever indeed, Sam, probably number two on my list of plausible explanations.

I just don`t see the problem with him wiping his hands clean on the layers of cloth that lay before him ?

[Cap'n Jack]

I like all this speculation, but is it not true to suggest that the reason the killer split or ripped the apron was to gain access to the pockets in which the prostitutes of the LVP kept their valuables?
And when he didn't find any, 'cos the police had already emptied her pockets, he walked away with the portion just in case there was a polished farthing in there, and threw it away when there wasn't, crouched down and told the world that it was the Juwes that did it.
Imagine ripping a woman open who has an apron across her belly?
It's going to get ripped isn't it?
I just read through five cases at the Old Bailey where murderers wiped their weapons on the aprons of their victims.

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah, but just wait. Someone will pooh pooh it.

...or mount a smear campaign.

Thanks for the support, though, CD Ditto for the kind words, Glenn.