Piece of Apron and the 'Juwes'

[Sam Flynn]

doesnt anyone think that may have played a larger part in the social cohesion than religion? the language barrier can become quite a hurdle.

...not for those who spoke Yiddish, which practically every Jewish immigrant - from wherever in Europe they originally came - was able to do.

[joelhall]

but my point is the english people couldnt. nor would they likely understand russian or polish. we had much the same problem when i lived and worked in peterborough. it creates a level of self-regulated segregation.

[Chava]

The immigrants would all have spoken Yiddish. True, they would have spoken it with different accents and dialects, but they would have had no more trouble understanding each other than a West Country person would have understanding a Lancashire person. As for nationality, as a Jew I know that Judaism is almost as much a nationality as it is a religion, especially in places where people were persecuted for being Jewish. So I doubt the immigrants saw themselves as Russians or Poles or Germans. They probably saw themselves as Jewish. A Jew from Minsk would have more in common with a Jew from Warsaw than he would have had with a gentile from Minsk.

I thought that it might be possible that the Ripper was setting out to implicate the Jews. The Stride murder was in a known Jewish club. Or maybe he was so incensed that he had been interrupted in his first kill by a Jewish peddler that he thought to do this on the second kill as a kind of revenge. But even if this is the case, I doubt he wrote that graffito. It's more likely, IMO, that he saw it and dropped the cloth there deliberately to draw attention to it and link it to the murders.

I had the opportunity to discuss the case with a well-known local police profiler. And even better, he really don't know much about the Ripper murders at all, so came fresh to the case. He felt strongly that this killer came prepared to carry material away from the body and so would have had something already with him for this purpose. He also believed that whatever he was using for that would be part of his ritual so he wouldn't give it up. We were talking mostly about Kelly, not this murder. But the principle remains. If he had something with him to take her organs away, he wouldn't throw it down in the street. And he wouldn't slice off a piece of apron to use that. So the cloth was likely used to wipe off sticky stuff and or blood, and was discarded after that was accomplished. If he noticed the graffito while he was escaping, he might preserve (or prasarve!) the cloth, clean himself up, hide his trophies away, and then go out and drop the cloth right by a piece of graffiti that mentions the Jews.

And since the cloth draws attention to the writing, I think it's highly possible that the writing was there beforehand, and the policeman didn't notice it until he saw the cloth lying right underneath it.

By the way, in terms of segregation, the Jews would have segregated themselves from the general population.

[Sam Flynn]

but my point is the english people couldnt.

A fair point, Joel, although it's worth remembering that the immigrant Irish - who were English speakers - also tended to clump together. These, too, were discriminated against in varying degrees by the indigenous population, largely because they were more willing to endure poor wages and conditions. That said, the mere fact that they were "foreigners" no doubt played a part irrespective of which language they spoke.

[joelhall]

perhaps, but language barriers are more difficult to overcome. what went for the irish would surely be more so for these poles and other eastern european jews. people will naturally group together based on culture and similarities, and sometimes start to integrate (lets call it spanish holiday syndrome ). however with poor knowledge of the local language, which binds people more so than anything else, this would be even more difficult.

[Jon Guy]

I believe that the apron was taken by the killer as a "marker" for his message.

Both Arnold and Warren believed the writing was done to inflame the locals, which is what I think the killer was aiming to do. General mayhem.

The killer, as far as we can tell, never cut any other victims clothes before.
If he wanted to clean himself up he could have wiped his hands on Kate`s clothing.

This rather large piece of apron was specifically cut for a reason, it was then smeared with blood of the victim.

I believe it was intended as a marker.

[Monty]

Joel,

but my point is the english people couldnt. nor would they likely understand russian or polish.

Thats not enitirely true.

In my work I have picked up Gujarati. Didnt specifically learn it, just picked it up and I can get by...to a point.

Eddowes is alledged to have worked with Jews at some stage. If this is true Im sure she would have picked something up.

Monty

[joelhall]

very, very doubtful. id say this would be far from the case in 19th century east london, for numerous reasons... not least because when they did come across these words they would be spoken rather than written, if at all. also people were not as integrated as now so its doubtful many would even have heard much of the language.

also eddowes is alledged to have worked for jews rather than with them as i understand it. i would doubt that she would have picked up much, nor had a great amount of contact or conversation with them.

to be blunt it would have been a different world from ours, where wed pick up words, and have easier access to various cultures and languages.

'By the way, in terms of segregation, the Jews would have segregated themselves from the general population.'

this quote from chava pretty much sums it up. especially during times of mass immigration, self-segregation is used for self-preservation and defence of a culture. one defining characteristic of this is language, the most important bonding tool. im sure they would have tried to keep this their own rather than allow outsiders theyre naturally wary of to undertsand their communication. the jews of east london were, and in some parts still are, a distinct community to those surrounding them.

for example, schwartz would have given his evidence in english. they would learn the local language as a matter of course to communicate with those around them... they would speak their own language so that the english didnt know what they were saying, as people still do today. its a way of protecting one of peoples most basic wants - a sense of identity within a specific group.

[Monty]

Joel,

very, very doubtful.

I admire you confidence yet ask you to cite your evidence as to why its doubtful.

id say this would be far from the case in 19th century east london, for numerous reasons... not least because when they did come across these words they would be spoken rather than written, if at all. also people were not as integrated as now so its doubtful many would even have heard much of the language

I think you are doing the average English speaking Victorian East Ender a great disservice.

How do you know they 'did not come across these words'? What do you have stating they would have spoken it rather than wrote it? Even if thats true the attempt would have been phonetic.

to be blunt it would have been a different world from ours, where wed pick up words, and have easier access to various cultures and languages

.

I completely disagree with that. I have come across many situations during my research indicating that the 'native' (for want of a better word) people within that area intergrated with the immigrants, mainly via trade.

also eddowes is alledged to have worked for jews rather than with them as i understand it. i would doubt that she would have picked up much, nor had a great amount of contact or conversation with them.

For, with, its not important. The important thing is that she would have communicated and would most likely have been aware of certain yiddish phrases. I defy anyone who works with people of another culture, religion etc not to pick something up with regards to their lifestyle, religion, language etc.

The Jews may well have segregated themselves, mainly out of the fact that the British populace was pointing the finger. Im not addressing that point. Im stating that the assumption the two 'parties' kept away from each other and that the English speaking Eastender would not have know of certain yiddish phrases or words is a false assumption.


Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Re. "integration" - one remarkable feature of the immigrant Jews in Britain was that many of them assimilated surprisingly quickly into society. It might have taken them a couple of years to speaka-da-lingo, but that's no big deal. Contrast that with modern British holiday-home owners in Spain etc, who can't be arsed to pick up more of the local argot than is necessary to order a beer or tell someone to bugger off.

The fact that the East End once had a significant Jewish (or Irish) immigrant population is more a feature of its being a port-of-call for all immigrants, than of any "collusion" on the part of the settlers themselves. The same was true of just about any port town in Britain. In Wales, for example, one sees comparatively few Jewish or Irish people outside Cardiff, Swansea or Newport until the end of the 19th Century, after the immigrants had found their feet and they, or their offspring, had started to venture further afield. The same was true of East London. Taking Hanbury Street as an example, we see an increasingly diverse mixture of Jewish, Irish and indigenous Cockney residents appearing from one census to the next.

Yes - there were and are Jewish enclaves in London, but the notion that the Jews "segregated themselves from the general population" is a sweeping over-simplification.

[Chava]

Yes - there were and are Jewish enclaves in London, but the notion that the Jews "segregated themselves from the general population" is a sweeping over-simplification.

No, it isn't. They would have worked for or with gentiles, they would have had gentiles working for them. But they wouldn't have spent a lot of time mixing with them, especially the kind of gentiles they met in the areas around the Ripper Grounds. They would have done business with them but they wouldn't have been shopping in their shops or drinking in their pubs or whatever. There was some leakage but not much. And an average immigrant Jewish family from Eastern Europe would have been putting all its efforts into getting out of the East End! Some Yiddish words crept into the English language. The use of the word 'gonoph' which means 'thief' occurs in Bleak House and is I believe the first such use of a Yiddish word in English parlance. (I'd say 'ganef' but my family isn't from Poland!)

It's true that Eddowes may have picked up a few words--I doubt it would have been more than that. But I don't see what the point would be if she did. Unless the Ripper interrogated her thoroughly before he killed her, he'd be unlikely to know that she'd worked for Jews.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

They would have worked for or with gentiles, they would have had gentiles working for them. But they wouldn't have spent a lot of time mixing with them, especially the kind of gentiles they met in the areas around the Ripper Grounds.

"Not spending a lot of time mixing" and "segregating themselves from the general population" are different things entirely. Both statements are generalisations, however.

They would have done business with them but they wouldn't have been shopping in their shops or drinking in their pubs or whatever.

...were those indigenous Brits who bought from Jewish merchants or, for temperance or religious reasons, avoided drinking in pubs, "segregating themselves", too?

[Monty]

The point is Chava, that an English speaking person such as Eddowes would have picked up a yiddish word or two is she mixed with Jews. And Jack may have done likewise, and he may have wrote like it.

Language isnt solely restricted to the native tongue.

Monty

[ChrisGeorge]

Joel,



Thats not enitirely true.

In my work I have picked up Gujarati. Didnt specifically learn it, just picked it up and I can get by...to a point.

Eddowes is alledged to have worked with Jews at some stage. If this is true Im sure she would have picked something up.

Monty

The point is Chava, that an English speaking person such as Eddowes would have picked up a yiddish word or two is she mixed with Jews. And Jack may have done likewise, and he may have wrote like it.

Language isnt solely restricted to the native tongue.

Monty

Hi Monty

Are we getting our Double Event victims mixed up here? As I recall, it is Elizabeth Stride who is said to have been able to speak Yiddish. As far as I know the same was not said about Eddowes, and nor do I know the story that Eddowes worked with Jews. Is there a reference you can point me to? Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Chava]

In the East End, I think it's certain that some Yiddish words were recognized outside the mainstream of Jewish society.

But the word 'Juwes' ain't one of them! So whether Jack did or did not speak a few words of Yiddish, its relevance to the graffito is nil. The Yiddish word for Jews is 'Yidden'.