Was Eddowes Already Dead, When Seen By Lawende & Levy?

[pinkmoon]

Has anyone every tried to track down the descendents of pc Watkins or pc Harvey to see if they ever confided in their famlies about what happend on the fatefull night.

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

Thanks for the reply. Might the procedures that the officer had to follow imply that the killer was at very limited risk of getting caught? For instance, even if the officer saw or heard an assailant running from the scene he would presumably have to first ascertain that there was a victim. Of course, this might not be immediately apparent, especially in poor light: upon discovering Stride's body Diemschutz informed the club members by stating, "There's a woman lying in the yard but I cannot say whether she's drunk or dead."

And, upon discovering extensive knife injuries, and then determining that the victim was dead, wouldn't the constable, in all likelihood, conclude that it would perhaps be unsafe for him to pursue a knife-wielding maniac without support? Then, after blowing his whistle, he would have to wait for help to arrive. And who would then have the responsibility of coordinating a response? Would the officers have to wait for the arrival of a sergeant or inspector? Of course, by this time the assailant would most probably be long gone, and the police would have little idea of which direction he was heading and perhaps no reliable description.

Indeed.

Strictly, the constable would have had to have witnessed the offence before acting. So unless he witnessed the assault, or have valid reason to suspect the person running had committed the crime, he wouldn't have grounds for arrest. And wrongful arrest could lead to the constables own prosecution.

An attempt to pursue, and arrest, is a minefield for the constable, I feel it highly unlikely a PC would conduct a chase in such circumstances.

Monty

[Observer]

I'd say she was lingering to wait for Watkins to sweep through at 1.30am.

Monty

Hi Monty

I'd like to think so, for this would mean that Kate Eddowes was no stranger to Mitre Square, and therefore beyond doubt a lady of the night. I'm still not convinced that the street ladies of the LVP manoeuvred their "customers" into position mid-beat, so as to avoid detection.

The police at the time were in line with your hypothesis, that she was waiting for Watkins to vacate the Square before doing her business so to speak.

Regarding my thoughts. Eddowes had her hand on the breast of the man, as seen by Lawende and co, it's possible it was a defensive gesture. To be fair, the coroner picked up on this, and Lawende responded by saying they did not appear to display any animosity towards each other.

Regards

Observer

[pinkmoon]

Indeed.

Strictly, the constable would have had to have witnessed the offence before acting. So unless he witnessed the assault, or have valid reason to suspect the person running had committed the crime, he wouldn't have grounds for arrest. And wrongful arrest could lead to the constables own prosecution.

An attempt to pursue, and arrest, is a minefield for the constable, I feel it highly unlikely a PC would conduct a chase in such circumstances.

Monty

If the police were to chase after every dodgy looking character in the eastend the whole area would have been one giant marathon! .Who was it who wrote the ripper should have been caught and if we employed the methods of the French police would have been?

[Monty]

If the police were to chase after every dodgy looking character in the eastend the whole area would have been one giant marathon! .Who was it who wrote the ripper should have been caught and if we employed the methods of the French police would have been?

Anderson, in reference to the French powers of being allowed to hold suspects indefinitely.

I have spoken with members of the Watkins, Harvey, Thompson and Hutt families, as well as a direct descendant of Mizen and Izzard, none knew of their ancestors involvement in the case until fairly recently.

Monty

[pinkmoon]

Anderson, in reference to the French powers of being allowed to hold suspects indefinitely.

I have spoken with members of the Watkins, Harvey, Thompson and Hutt families, as well as a direct descendant of Mizen and Izzard, none knew of their ancestors involvement in the case until fairly recently.

Monty

Oh well what a shame I thought I might have actually contributed something usefully for once while I'm on I don't suppose you know the exact dimensions of a Victorian liston knife

[Observer]

Perhaps doing what Lawende and party had been doing until a few seconds earlier - sheltering from the rain.

I very much doubt it

[pinkmoon]

I very much doubt it

She had her hand on his chest could she be trying to calm the gentleman down?could they have already been into the court for a spot of "let's try and stay dry "and seen something rather nasty or maybe due to the lighting something they were not to sure about.

[Harry D]

Another aspect of these murders, which questions if the killer did ever remove organs from any of the victims when as you say he could have had a field day with Kelly

Looks to me like he did have a field day with Kelly. Besides, her heart was missing.

[pinkmoon]

I very much doubt it

Looks to me like he did have a field day with Kelly. Besides, her heart was missing.

He could also have taken two kidneys ,a liver ,a womb ,two lungs,two eyes,two hands,two feet,two ears,a,spleen,two breasts,intestines,two arms,two legs,a scalp,a whole head ,countless different muscles.but he didn't so he missed a perfect chance to make a small fortune if he was doing this for the sale of the plundered body parts.

[Monty]

Oh well what a shame I thought I might have actually contributed something usefully for once while I'm on I don't suppose you know the exact dimensions of a Victorian liston knife

On average, 292mm.

Monty

[pinkmoon]

On average, 292mm.

Monty

Thank you a great help is that including the handle I think I have read that different handles could be attached to them.

[Wickerman]

We do appear to be dealing with a well trained individual who can operate in complete darkness.

It would be easy to come to that conclusion, too easy.
Given he was able to avoid all the constables on their beats, even when they did them in reverse. That he was able to appear out of nowhere, then disappear seemingly at will. That he appears to have left no hints to anyone, neighbors, friends, family, that he had been involved in these crimes, it would be easy to present him as the eminent super-sleuth, the Moriarty of Whitechapel.

Yet if we are honest, it isn't what we know, it's what we don't know, our lack of knowledge, and the absence of true facts which would be the greatest contributor to such a belief.

Personally, I do believe he had a degree of medical experience, beyond that, it is difficult to say.

Knowledge of a choke hold would be handy with any dangerous client.
Never had to use more than a simple headlock myself.

Ever considered the garrotte?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

Trevor's latest expert is a forensic pathologist. With the greatest of respect to Dr Ind, I would submit that this is a far more relevant speciality, to the issues under consideration, than Gynaecological Oncology.

I suppose it's the case with most professions. For example, if I wanted advice on an aspect of property law I wouldn't consult a family or criminal lawyer, although they may be able to provide basic advice.

Hi John.
Yes, but the forensic pathologist was making a general observation, when you include the actual specifics of these murders the details present a different picture.
The point Dr. Ind was making was that the removal of the uterus was done by a right-handed person. His comment was not meant to refer to every wound on the body, that was not necessary. We already have medical opinion that a right-handed man was at work, unless we choose to believe he stood directly in front of each victim and sliced their throats left-handed, and received a face full of blood for his troubles.
And, as I pointed out, Chapman's body was not laid down by a man who intended to work left-handed.

[pinkmoon]

It would be easy to come to that conclusion, too easy.
Given he was able to avoid all the constables on their beats, even when they did them in reverse. That he was able to appear out of nowhere, then disappear seemingly at will. That he appears to have left no hints to anyone, neighbors, friends, family, that he had been involved in these crimes, it would be easy to present him as the eminent super-sleuth, the Moriarty of Whitechapel.

Yet if we are honest, it isn't what we know, it's what we don't know, our lack of knowledge, and the absence of true facts which would be the greatest contributor to such a belief.

Personally, I do believe he had a degree of medical experience, beyond that, it is difficult to say.




Ever considered the garrotte?

In portrait of a killer Patricia carries out an experiment in a warehouse with the same lighting conditions present at the time of the murders and she examines the light a police lantern would generate it would have been no great feat for our killer to sink into the shadows plus he had a chance of somebody not coming forward if they saw him during his murders.I have no doubt his luck would have ran out one day if he had carried on killing after all when you gamble all the time the house always wins eventually.The garrotte is a very interesting theory if it was followed up with a deep throat slash straight away it couldn't be detected think you onto something there my friend.