A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

Hey Gryff, there are four known date estimates for the shawl.

The original one done at Sothebys (I think) some years ago and based of a physical examination. They thought Edwardian.

Three done at RE's request, all from photos only. Two (Christies and Dianne Thalmann) thought earlyish 19th-century and Sothebys thought 'later'.

In short, I wouldn't put much faith in any of the estimates.

Mick I was under the impression RE had a preference for Dianne Thalmann as er ... she did not know if it was Russian ?

cheers, gryff

[Archaic]

Interesting how similar semen looks to urine.

Yes, that's what I thought. The 3 examples I posted are all modern "fresh" stains, not "ancient" stains that (as I understand it) have been injected with some sort of enzymatic solution to liquify them so they can be "vaccumed" up in "partial segments" which are somehow reassembled like a "jigsaw puzzle".

Aren't test samples also injected with special dyes to get them to fluoresce under the microscope?

I think gryff is correct that a wider sample ought to have been taken of material around the suspected "semen" stain for control purposes. Perhaps this was done but not mentioned in the book?


As for RE's remark about a possible "semen stain" fitting Jack's "way of operating" I am unaware of a single report from any contemporary source of any semen found on or near any of the Ripper victims.
On the contrary, the historical record attests to the fact that doctors, police, etc. examined the murder victims specifically searching for traces of semen and failed to find any.

There's no evidence that any of the Ripper victims were physically raped by the killer, other than with his knife. (Or if Emma Smith was an early victim, a metal bar.)

It's a complete myth that all sexual serial killers ejaculate at the scene of the crime.

Many serial killers, including "trophy" type killers, deliberately delay until they successfully get away from the scene of the crime and are are in what they deem to be a "safe" place. An example of this is Ed Kemper.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Chris]

As for RE's remark about a possible "semen stain" fitting Jack's "way of operating" I am unaware of a single report from any contemporary source of any semen found on or near any of the Ripper victims.
On the contrary, the historical record attests to the fact that doctors, police, etc. examined the murder victims specifically searching for traces of semen and failed to find any.

It's interesting that RE doesn't (I think) say anything like that about the Ripper murders in the book, though he does discuss other serial killers who ejaculated at the scene of the crime.

I don't think I'd altogether rule out the possibility that JL misunderstood RE saying this was a known phenomenon more generally.

[MrBarnett]

It's interesting that RE doesn't (I think) say anything like that about the Ripper murders in the book, though he does discuss other serial killers who ejaculated at the scene of the crime.

I don't think I'd altogether rule out the possibility that JL misunderstood RE saying this was a known phenomenon more generally.

Hi Chris ,

Isn't this just a reference to Kos?

MrB

[Chris]

Isn't this just a reference to Kos?

I suppose it could be, but it seems to me to read more like a description of the murderer's modus operandi:
... his eyes lit up and he said this is exactly what has been reported about Jack. This is his way of operating and this is a great find.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

Aren't test samples also injected with special dyes to get them to fluoresce under the microscope?

Archaic, from what I gather Dr. JL viewed the shawl under a special light (probably a fancy UV light) to visualise the stains. There are pics taken for promo purposes showing Dr. JL shining a light on the shawl.

Fancy Light on Shawl


cheers, gryff

[Chris]

Archaic, from what I gather Dr. JL viewed the shawl under a special light (probably a fancy UV light) to visualise the stains. There are pics taken for promo purposes showing Dr. JL shining a light on the shawl.

Fancy Light on Shawl

Yes. The book seems to confuse reflective UV with fluorescence caused by UV illumination.

But at any rate it says "It is known that urine and saliva fluoresce under ultraviolet light but they tend to give off an orange hue, whereas seminal fluorescence is usually greenish."

The picture Bunny posted above suggests otherwise.

[MrBarnett]

I suppose it could be, but it seems to me to read more like a description of the murderer's modus operandi:
... his eyes lit up and he said this is exactly what has been reported about Jack. This is his way of operating and this is a great find.

If Jari is giving a verbatim report of RE's response, you may be right.

But RE had already fixed on Kos as his man, so
so it's not surprising his eyes lit up and what he probably said was more like 'This is exactly what has been reported about him- this is what he did..'

MrB

[GUT]

All this talk of Mr Edwards fixating on Koz, I wonder who was next on his hit list he'd already tried Deeming, I suspect if he had failed with Koz he would have moved on to Druitt, Tumblety or Ostrog or anyone else you mght want to name.

He'd bought the table cloth now he had to make it pay off.

[pinkmoon]

This whole shawl thing was wrong from the start it fed on the fact that people wanted the impossible to know the indenity of jack the ripper which we will never know. Any book that states case close will always sell well but the trade of will always be that the next author who comes along will suffer because people will think here we go again and not buy their book Stewart Evans excellent book on tumblety sufferd such a fate thanks to the maybrick diary fiasco .

[Sticks]

I have followed most of what's been posted regarding the DNA evidence (or lack of) and it's been a fascinating read. Has there been any suggestion here from Jonathan or his crew of an upcoming podcast devoted to the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match?

[mickreed]

Mick I was under the impression RE had a preference for Dianne Thalmann as er ... she did not know if it was Russian ?

cheers, gryff

Correct Gryff. She, when asked, said effectively that since she had no idea where it came from, it could be Russian - or presumably Turkish, Australian, the golden road to Samarkand, but she wasn't asked about those

[mickreed]

Yes. The book seems to confuse reflective UV with fluorescence caused by UV illumination.

But at any rate it says "It is known that urine and saliva fluoresce under ultraviolet light but they tend to give off an orange hue, whereas seminal fluorescence is usually greenish."

The picture Bunny posted above suggests otherwise.

This is quite interesting on this topic

http://forensics.org.my/img/Article%2004.pdf

[mickreed]

All this talk of Mr Edwards fixating on Koz, I wonder who was next on his hit list he'd already tried Deeming, I suspect if he had failed with Koz he would have moved on to Druitt, Tumblety or Ostrog or anyone else you mght want to name.

He'd bought the table cloth now he had to make it pay off.

G'day Gut

To give RE his due, I'm not quite sure he tried Deeming first. That was Robin Napper who, allegedly, had to persuade RE to let JL look at the shawl.

However, your implication (as I read it) that RE is a chancer par excellence, is not something I feel inclined to argue with.

[Chris]

I have followed most of what's been posted regarding the DNA evidence (or lack of) and it's been a fascinating read. Has there been any suggestion here from Jonathan or his crew of an upcoming podcast devoted to the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match?

Yes, there were plans for one in September, with Russell Edwards and Jari Louhelainen, but the latter withdrew because he said he had "been advised by the Corporate Communications office at his University to not give further interviews "at this time"."

http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.php?p=247222&postcount=625

That was on 24 September. Which, thinking about it, makes his "tweet" about "seven weeks of interviews, invited talks and photo shoots for magazines etc" even stranger. Has he been defying their advice for the last month, or what?