A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi All,

Now that all this DNA BS about Aaron Kosminski has been relegated to the Ripperological scrapheap, it might be a humane gesture if we all contributed to some sort of place-marker which removed him from suspicion and finally allowed him to rest in peace.

Ripperology was quick enough to memorialise Abberline and Swanson, so now might be a good time to do a similar thing for Aaron Kosminski.

It's the very least we owe him.

Regards,

Simon

PS. We might then repeat the process with Montague John Druitt.

Plus many others all to numerous to mention

[mickreed]

Nope, I would say that 1m books sales is a HUGE porky. I used to have access to Nielsen BookScan data (not now alas) but I KNOW that the Mail On Sunday mag has a weekly charts which is taken directly from Nielsen. I read that list every week and I can't recall ever seeing Naming The Ripper on the top 10 Hardback Non-Fiction. I've just searched all the online book shops and checked out the top sales lists - can't find Naming The Ripper. The number 1 spot is held at the moment by The Second Half - Roy Keane which has so far sold 21,068. I'm pretty sure that Roy Keane's book is rather more popular than Naming The Ripper. AND IF Naming The Ripper really has sold a million copies do you think it would feature in any of the charts? Amazon? Waterstones? Do you think that Naming the ripper could out sell Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn (882,029 sales). I think not.
The bbestselling book of 2013 was My Autobiography by Alex Ferguson which sold 647, 153 copies in that year. And RE is saying he's sold 1 million (300k more than Sir Alex) in a little under 2 months?

Nope.

Naming the Ripper came out on 9th Sept 2014. If he'd sold 1 million books in 8 weeks it would be NATIONAL HEADLINE news.

Thanks Richard

The following shows the book's Amazon ranks which are not very high. It seems that on Amazon UK, over 937,000 books are selling better than RE's. While in the States, only 14,000 plus selling better.

Perhas RE added all his sales rankings up. That would make more than a million.

Okay, so current rankings don't equate with total sales, nor sales from other outlets, but as you say, A million sold in 6 weeks would surely hit some sort of headline.

Sales rankings explained here

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/684205-what-do-amazon-rankings-mean

[richardh]

John Locke sold 1.1m ebooks (quicker sellers) in FIVE months. Yet RE sold 1 million 16 quid books in 8 weeks. You think?

LINK

Above all else this makes my blood boil because IMO it's a blatant lie designed to con and shows perhaps the real RE and his real motive. If he can fib so HUGE what does that say for the content of his book?

[GUT]

Notice all those October sales 0, 0, 0, and Zero, followed by zip, none and SFA.

[Archaic]

re: Time Frame Available for Scientific Analysis of the Data

If JL's DNA analysis was completed some time ago -apparently a few years ago? - at any rate well before RE began writing his book, wouldn't that have given JL adequate time to produce a paper explaining his results and submit it for peer-review?

Even if the publishers wanted JL to hold back on the release of the scientific paper until the book was out, wouldn't the paper at least be completed by now, and couldn't he state this to be the case and name a date for the scientific paper's official release date?

Did they not realize that other scientists and a sizable number of readers would ask for and expect to be able to examine the completed paper? That's what baffles me.

Best regards,
Archaic

Well Archaic, according to the interview Dr JL did for the BBC Radio 4 InScience program some of the information (hair and eye colour) was delivered to RE 3 days before the book deadline. He also would have liked to do more but the book deadline over rode further investigation (as well as the fact that the RE's budget for the research was blown)

So I'm not sure about a "few years ago".

cheers, gryff

Hi everyone. Please forgive the length of this post; I'm trying to be as clear and as accurate as possible.

I grant that my impression that the scientific analysis was carried out as long as "a few years ago" may not be correct. It's been difficult to find firm dates, so I based my impression on the information I could find.

Mr. Edwards purchased the shawl in 2007.

The following information has been previously stated on Casebook, and is stated again in an article by The Independent linked below:
'There are currently about 34,617 entries in the GMI database, and the figure would have been nearer to 29,000 when Dr Louhelainen carried out his research some time ago.'

That represents an increase of approximately 15% in the number of samples contained in the data base, which (as a complete layman) I figured took at least a couple of years to accomplish. I freely admit that I may be mistaken; it's possible that the geneticists have made more rapid progress very recently.

The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...r-9804325.html

A much firmer time range for the completion of the scientific analysis came to hand yesterday in the Liverpool Echo. The article is linked below. 'For Jari, who has worked at JMU for eight years, the incredible journey began in 2011 when Russell and a member of an Australian documentary film production company (the latter was looking at another suspect) arrived on his doorstep.'

We are now in late October 2014, so that's approximately 3 years ago, possibly more. Of course the work wasn't completed then, but a scientist would begin keeping notes for use in the paper they would later submit for peer review.

I would also reference the statement made by Mr. Edwards in the same article: “Me and Jari are very much like brothers now. We’ve been through so much in the lead-up to the book coming out and now we’re riding the crest of an amazing wave of media interest together. We had the information for months before the book came out and the hardest thing was keeping quiet when I wanted to shout about it from the rooftops.”

Mr. Edwards states very clearly that he and Dr. Louhelainen "had the information for months before the book out."

The Liverpool Echo: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...pp-tim-7947235

I think it's reasonable to expect that at least some of those months could have been spent in preparing a scientific paper describing the "new" procedures used to "vacuum" 120+ year old genetic material from a shawl, and providing an analysis of the results obtained.

It's easily foreseeable that the book's conclusion would give rise to much interest and many questions.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

[GUT]

G'day Archaic

The 2011 reference was to an attempt to lnk the table cloth to Deeming, so the Koz research came after that.

[richardh]

Above all else don't you think the publisher would be using this 'fact' in their sales patter if it were true?

Notice all those October sales 0, 0, 0, and Zero, followed by zip, none and SFA.

[mickreed]

John Locke sold 1.1m ebooks (quicker sellers) in FIVE months. Yet RE sold 1 million 16 quid books in 8 weeks. You think?

LINK

Above all else this makes my blood boil because IMO it's a blatant lie designed to con and shows perhaps the real RE and his real motive. If he can fib so HUGE what does that say for the content of his book?

Just another wooden stake through his heart. Christopher Lee should play him in the film.

[mickreed]

Notice all those October sales 0, 0, 0, and Zero, followed by zip, none and SFA.

I'm not sure, GUT, that the sales figures mean anything. Amazon don't release them. But the current rankings are real and come from Amazon.

It means that right now, it ain't selling very fast. And it seems that people in my homeland are even less inclined to buy it than anyone else

[mickreed]

Above all else don't you think the publisher would be using this 'fact' in their sales patter if it were true?

Another point is that the book has only had 24 reviews on Amazon which doesn't suggest a high level of sales.

http://www.amazon.com/Naming-Jack-Ripper-Russell-Edwards/dp/1493011901/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414013421&sr=1-1&keywords=naming+jack+the+ripper

However this review is only a few hours old.

A excellent read, very graphic murder descriptions all based on facts. Russell really did a superb job in obtaining proof of the Ripper. Amazing and addictive! Bravo Russell!

There may be one born every minute, or perhaps he has a team of tax-deductible reviewers out there.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

If he can fib so HUGE what does that say for the content of his book?

And that is a question that should be asked Richard. The more I read about this book and its contents the more dubious I become (I'm being polite). It struck me that 1 million copies in 2 months seemed like a lot but I did warn Mick it was from RE's website. And RE does seem like an aggressive self-promoter.

cheers, gryff

[mickreed]

A

There may be one born every minute, or perhaps he has a team of tax-deductible reviewers out there.

And here's another recent review. Maybe he'll take up this idea - if it's not his in the first place.

I enjoyed the book immensely. I want to thank Russell Edwards for taking the time (and spending the money) to solve what was an enduring mystery. Obviously there are some who find the results that he puts forward as being "suspect." I would love to see Mr. Edwards respond to these allegations in a follow up book.

[mickreed]

It is interesting that JL's only known public response since the Independent story broke is to post this on Facebook.

[mickreed]

RE does seem like an aggressive self-promoter.

cheers, gryff

That attribute was being defended on the forums, soon after the book was published - and it's okay if you've got something worth promoting, and you do it honestly.

I wonder how the publishers are going with their investigation that they promised in the Independent.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

Mr. Edwards states very clearly that he and Dr. Louhelainen "had the information for months before the book out."

The Liverpool Echo: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...pp-tim-7947235

I think it's reasonable to expect that at least some of those months could have been spent in preparing a scientific paper describing the "new" procedures used to "vacuum" 120+ year old genetic material from a shawl, and providing an analysis of the results obtained.

It's easily foreseeable that the book's conclusion would give rise to much interest and many questions.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

You may have noticed that Chris and Mick were quick to point out that the stuff delivered a few days before the book deadline was the Kosminski DNA stuff not CE's DNA. A fact I have since acknowledged.

Chris estimates that the CE DNA stuff was completed in early 2013 - so over a year ago.

You are right about a paper could have been prepared since the deadline (May this year I believe ) but in at least one interview Dr. JL gave he claims to be surprised by the national reaction - expecting only interest from local papers. If that is true he may not have considered it important to do immeadiately.

cheers, gryff