A problem with the "Eddowes Shawl" DNA match

[mickreed]

I think one problem with all of this is that the publisher seems to have placed such stringent limitations on the results being discussed with anyone else before publication.

Having said that, we're nearly a month on from publication now, and there is still no willingness to discuss the results.

I can't know what restrictions the publishers put on, but whatever they were, I fail to see how they could apply to JL. If they did, and he agreed to them, then I think he was foolish indeed. Unless there was a financial aspect that we are unaware of.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

I can't know what restrictions the publishers put on, but whatever they were, I fail to see how they could apply to JL. If they did, and he agreed to them, then I think he was foolish indeed. Unless there was a financial aspect that we are unaware of.

@ Mick, Chris, GUT et al.

We are making the assumption that this is some private little deal that Dr JL negotiated. Like many (most?) universities Liverpool John Moores University works with business and corporations.

LJMU Industry and Business Engagement

Scroll down the page and click on "Contract research and development" and you will find this:

"Contract Research is generally defined as research commissioned by an external organisation, where any rights generated are usually owned by that organisation."

I've not done an extensive investigation of how different universities deal with intellectual property rights but this from the University of Southern California:

Submitting and Negotiating Sponsored Agreements

"Sponsors sometimes request a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) at this phase. When possible, NDA’s should be avoided. When required, NDA’s are signed by the university and not by the investigator. "

Dr JL may not have much of a say in how this will play out.

cheers, gryff

[Chris]

Peter Griffith aka gryff

That's an interesting thought. I haven't heard any suggestion that Dr Louhelainen is being prevented from reponding to these questions by a non-disclosure agreement, but I certainly had to sign one before I spoke to Russell Edwards, and no doubt it would be damaging to future book sales if Dr L announced now that the apparent rarity of the "Eddowes" DNA was an error.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

Peter Griffith aka gryff

That's an interesting thought. I haven't heard any suggestion that Dr Louhelainen is being prevented from reponding to these questions by a non-disclosure agreement, but I certainly had to sign one before I spoke to Russell Edwards, and no doubt it would be damaging to future book sales if Dr L announced now that the apparent rarity of the "Eddowes" DNA was an error.

Well Chris, think not just about Edwards and book sales - what could be the impact on corporate/business funding to LJMU if Dr JL somehow was perceived to have broken an NDA.

According to this source (for USA) Link :

Presently, industry supports approximately 7% of total university research funding and up to 16% of research funding in the biotechnology field.

If LJMU has been involved with setting up a contract, it is not just the reputation of Dr JL here, but also could be that of LJMU and how it handles research contracts with business. The future of corporate funding at LJMU may outweigh the reputation of one scientist.

cheers, gryff

[Chris]

On the other hand, the book does say that Dr L gave his time for free on condition that he could write a scientific paper afterwards. If that's the case there can't be any blanket ban on disclosing further details.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

On the other hand, the book does say that Dr L gave his time for free on condition that he could write a scientific paper afterwards. If that's the case there can't be any blanket ban on disclosing further details.

Yes indeed Chris. I have suggested before that such a paper could centre around innovations in technology and extraction techniques with the shawl just being a small part of the final published paper. But maybe there will be no limitation - I don't know what has been signed and by whom.

I should also point out that the University of California Berkley, which has a lot of prestige, has a policy that does not allow publication restrictions but it does permit delays:

Publication delays not exceeding sixty (60) days are acceptable so that a sponsor may review publications and (1) offer comments or suggestions and/or (2) determine that its proprietary data are not inadvertently disclosed.

If Dr JL is operating under similar policy - I don't expect immediate explanations of the 314.1c issue anytime soon.

Right now, it maybe the stuff of lawyers and contracts - not scientists and DNA.

cheers, gryff

[nashwan]

Well, that's probably the nail in the coffin. Thanks Chris.

The one issue that kept making me think that Edwards might have garbled something was the fact that he was calling 314.1c a global private mutation when it clearly wasn't. In other words it seemed like he was misusing the terminology. But this explains it -- it's a software problem, which was suggested as a possibility earlier in this thread.

I actually feel really bad for JL right now, as he's probably trying to figure out how to admit this publicly without destroying his career. If this were just a typical DNA identification gig it wouldn't be a big deal, but this has brought huge media attention to him and his university.

If he's partly responsible for helping put 'criminals' behind bars, perhaps he should be held to a high standard.

[mickreed]

Peter Griffith aka gryff

That's an interesting thought. I haven't heard any suggestion that Dr Louhelainen is being prevented from reponding to these questions by a non-disclosure agreement, but I certainly had to sign one before I spoke to Russell Edwards, and no doubt it would be damaging to future book sales if Dr L announced now that the apparent rarity of the "Eddowes" DNA was an error.

Hmm, Chris. That is interesting. I've only ever given help in academic books really, and it never occurred to me that somebody would come and say, 'please help me, and by the way before you do, sign this' It's amazing, at least to me.

The impression I got from various interviews with JL did was that this was just a freebie that he did and that, according to the interview in the Finnish paper that we discussed a while back, some of his colleagues were upset that the uni facilities were used for this freebie.

Now, a question that I asked a while back, was to the effect that would the uni have to be involved officially for the use of the facilities, and if so, wouldn't they want a piece of the action?

[mickreed]

Peter Griffith aka gryff

That's an interesting thought. I haven't heard any suggestion that Dr Louhelainen is being prevented from reponding to these questions by a non-disclosure agreement, but I certainly had to sign one before I spoke to Russell Edwards, and no doubt it would be damaging to future book sales if Dr L announced now that the apparent rarity of the "Eddowes" DNA was an error.

There is the point Chris, that I think you heard, the JL had been advised by LJMU to stop giving interviews, and perhaps this included any comments at all. Some of us (me for for one) wondered if this was because the wheels were starting to fall off and it was getting embarrassing for the uni. On the other hand it has since been reported that he'll be at Salisbury with RE for the Whitechapel Society meeting.

[mickreed]

If Dr JL is operating under similar policy - I don't expect immediate explanations of the 314.1c issue anytime soon.

Perhaps it's time for the world's media to get as involved as they were in spruiking this story.

Should I hold my breath?

[Fisherman]

Perhaps it's time for the world's media to get as involved as they were in spruiking this story.

Should I hold my breath?

I wouldn´t think so, no ...!

The best,
Fisherman

[GUT]

Perhaps it's time for the world's media to get as involved as they were in spruiking this story.

Should I hold my breath?

G'day Mck

Yes and post photos of the lovely colours you turn.

[mickreed]

G'day Mck

Yes and post photos of the lovely colours you turn.

Look, GUT. I'm not having you claiming that the purple blotches are Michaelmas daisies and making megabucks.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

There is the point Chris, that I think you heard, the JL had been advised by LJMU to stop giving interviews, and perhaps this included any comments at all. Some of us (me for for one) wondered if this was because the wheels were starting to fall off and it was getting embarrassing for the uni. On the other hand it has since been reported that he'll be at Salisbury with RE for the Whitechapel Society meeting.

Mick, according to Lechmere's post on the original about the presentations:"Kosminski and Victim DNA Match" thread:

DR JARI LOUHELAINEN: "Naming Jack the Ripper".
Jari, senior lecturer in microbiology at Liverpool John Moores, will tell us how he extracted DNA from the shawl said to belong to Catherine Eddowes.

Will be interesting to see what happens at these presentations and how much of the fog is lifted around the 314.1c issues raised here by Chris and others.

But I'm not optimistic ...

And as for :

Now, a question that I asked a while back, was to the effect that would the uni have to be involved officially for the use of the facilities, and if so, wouldn't they want a piece of the action?

If there was money involved, and we know there was a budget, then I'm sure the LJMU's Research & Innovation Services were involved. The problem they are looking at now, as information about Edwards comes out, could be the tackiness of the JTR Lip Balm and all the other items Edwards is flogging. Does the university want to be associated with such tat?

cheers, gryff

[Chris]

Does the university want to be associated with such tat?

If my experience is anything to go by, yes, provided the price is right.