Mitre Square Timeline

[Herlock Sholmes]

A little bit more info which seems to be in agreement with the rest of the timeline -

The statement of PC Long says that he found the apron piece and the GSG about 2. 55 am, called in the PC from the adjoining beat, searched the stair-cases, then proceeded to the Station, arriving about 3. 05 or 3. 10 am, returning to Goulston Street with the Inspector. Then they returned to Leman St, and the apron was handed to "a gentleman whom I have since learnt is Dr Phillips". Long then returned to Goulston St, about 5 am.

So Dr Phillips received the apron piece shortly before 5 am.
+

Excellent Doc. That ties up nicely. Where is the above info from.

Ive just realised what this account is saying - After Long put another PC in charge he went to the station but left the apron piece there (which makes sense - I’d stupidly assumed that he’d taken the apron with him) - He then returned to Goulston with an inspector - They took the apron to Leman Street and handed to Phillips around 5.00

BUT

Long - I at once searched the staircases and areas of the Building but found nothing else. I at once took the apron to Commercial Road Police Station and reported it to the Inspector on Duty.

Makes no sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Mystery


Inspector Collard arrived in Mitre Square at 2.02/2.03. From the inquest:


When witness arrived at the square he took immediate steps to have the neighbourhood searched for the person who had committed the murder. Mr. M’William, the chief of the detectives, on his arrival shortly afterwards with a number of detectives,

- so according to Inspector Collard, McWilliam arrived in Mitre Square shortly after 2.02/2.03.


But, McWilliam in his report said, after talking about what went on in Mitre Square:


In the meantime I had been informed of the murder and arrived at the Detective Office at 3.45 a.m.,after ascertaining from S.S. Izzard what steps he had taken in consequence of it; I wired to Scotland Yard informing the Metropolitan Police of the murder and went with D.S. Downes to Bishopsgate Station & from thence to Mitre Square.


- so according to McWilliam himself he arrives in Mitre Square sometime after 4.00. At least 2 hours later than Collard claimed.

[The Rookie Detective]

This is an excellent thread.

I commend you Herlock for your determination on this particular topic.

It's clear from what's been ascertained thus far, that when comparing the relative statements made by each of the seemingly endless list of police officers, detectives, and doctors involved with the Mitre Square incident; things just don't add up.

Contradictions, inaccuracies, inconsistencies and lots of contrasting details that appear to directly work in opposition and thus cause a minefield of confusion.

Well done Herlock for your persistence.

[Geddy2112]

Being useless with maps I can do no better than Leman Street to Golden Lane 2.2 miles. So how long in a horse drawn cab?

A Victorian horse drawn cab travelled at speeds of between 4 and 12 miles per hour. So between 11 mins and 33 mins.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is an excellent thread.

I commend you Herlock for your determination on this particular topic.

It's clear from what's been ascertained thus far, that when comparing the relative statements made by each of the seemingly endless list of police officers, detectives, and doctors involved with the Mitre Square incident; things just don't add up.

Contradictions, inaccuracies, inconsistencies and lots of contrasting details that appear to directly work in opposition and thus cause a minefield of confusion.

Well done Herlock for your persistence.

Thanks RD. It’s certainly frustrating because we can never arrive at a complete one. We’re always going to have incidents which we can only say occurred sometime between x and y.

The Collard/McWilliam one is baffling. Likewise Long. A Time Machine would come in handy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A Victorian horse drawn cab travelled at speeds of between 4 and 12 miles per hour. So between 11 mins and 33 mins.

I knew that having someone from the north east would help Geddy. Sadly we only have motor vehicles in the midlands. Cheers.

[Geddy2112]

I knew that having someone from the north east would help Geddy. Sadly we only have motor vehicles in the midlands. Cheers.

Bashturd... we have trams now, well at Beamish.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Best Solution To A Discrepancy?

Long (inquest): ““I was on duty in Goulston Street, Whitechapel on the 30th September, about 2.55 AM. I found a portion of a woman’s apron which I produce. There appeared blood stains on it, one portion was wet, lying in a passage leading to the staircases of 108 to 119 Model Dwelling House. Above it on the wall was written in chalk – The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing. I at once searched the staircases and areas of the Building but found nothing else. I at once took the apron to Commercial Road Police Station and reported it to the Inspector on Duty. I passed that spot where the apron was found about 2.20, the apron was not there when I passed then.”

And yet….


A49301C/8c
6th November, 1888. [Stamped: – HOME OFFICE 6 NOV.88 RECd. DEPt.]

“I was on duty in Goulston Street on the morning of 30th Sept: at about 2.55 A.M. I found a portion of an apron covered in blood lying in the passage of the door-way leading to Nos. 108 to 119 Model Dwellings in Goulston Street. Above it on the wall was written in chalk “The Juews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing”, I at once called the P.C. on the adjoining beat and then searched the stair-cases, but found no traces of any person or marks. I at once proceeded to the Station, telling the P.C. to see that no one entered or left the building in my absence. I arrived at the Station about 5 or 10 minutes past 3, and reported to the Inspector on duty finding the apron and the writing. The Inspector at once proceeded to Goulston Street and inspected the writing. From there we proceeded to Leman St., and the apron was handed by the Inspector to a gentleman whom I have since learnt is Dr. Phillips. I then returned back on duty in Goulston Street about 5.”

Alfred Long PC 254A.


From the Lloyd’s reporter who was there (and had seen Dr Brown’s sketch) it looks like Brown was still at the mortuary at 5.20 awaiting the arrival of Phillips.


So if Long arrived at Commercial Street Station at 3.10. Reported to the Inspector (approx 10 minutes?) = 3.20. Walked back to Goulston Street = 3.30. 10 minutes looking around the scene with the inspector = 3.40. That would have them at Leman Street for around 3.50. So why was Brown still waiting for Phillips to arrive at the mortuary at 5.20?

Phillips had arrived in Dutfield’s Yard at around 1.35 (around 20 minutes after Blackwell) How long was he in the yard? It’s difficult to imagine it being more that 30 minutes. Would he have gone to the mortuary with the body?

After the Inspector handed over the apron piece Long went back on duty which he said was at 5.00 which implied that it was just before 5.00 when Phillips received the apron. We have already given ourselves a horse drawn cab time range of 11-33 minutes from Leman Street to Golden Lane so this sort of ties up:


3.10 Long arrives at Commercial Street Station (leaving the apron in situ makes sense in terms of the crime scene)

3.20 Long has reported to the Inspector.

3.30 Long and Inspector arrive at Goulston Street.

3.40 The Inspector has had a look around the scene.

3.50 They arrive at Leman Street Station.

All of this could have taken longer of course.

? Dr Phillips arrives at Leman Street Station. (Maybe he confers with a senior officer? Maybe there is a delay before transport becomes available to get him to the mortuary??

Around 4.55 Dr Phillips is handed the apron piece at Leman Street Station.

Around 5.30 Dr Phillips arrives by cab at the mortuary.

[Doctored Whatsit]

I wonder, looking at the two statements of PC Long ... did Long take the apron piece to the station to show it to the Inspector, then kept it, and returned to Goulston St with it to show where it was found, then they took it back to Leman St, and gave it to Dr Phillips? If this is so, then both statements can be correct, if slightly confusing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder, looking at the two statements of PC Long ... did Long take the apron piece to the station to show it to the Inspector, then kept it, and returned to Goulston St with it to show where it was found, then they took it back to Leman St, and gave it to Dr Phillips? If this is so, then both statements can be correct, if slightly confusing.

Could be Doc, but I’m tending to go with the report from Long. Leaving it in situ would make sense as far as preserving the crime scene and then wanting a senior officer to view it first and to make the decision as to what to do. That version ties up better in terms of Phillips receiving the apron too.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Third Amendment


1.44 - PC Watkins enters Mitre Square from Mitre Street and finds the body in the South-West corner.

1.45 - Watkins goes over to the warehouse of Kearley and Tonge and asks for assistant from George Morris who returns with him to view the body.

1.47 - Watkins remains with the body and sends Holland for assistance. Morris, blowing his whistle, runs down Mitre Street into Aldgate.

1.48 - PC Harvey hears the whistle and sees Morris running. He goes over to him and Morris tells him about the body. Morris then sees PC Holland (814City) and calls him over.

1.49 - The three men go to Mitre Square. Holland is sent to fetch Dr George William Sequiera (34, Jewry Street)

1.55 - At Bishopsgate Station Inspector Collard is informed of the body. He telegraphs headquarters then he sends a PC to fetch City Police Surgeon, Frederick Gordon Brown (17, Finsbury Circus) (6, North-buildings, Eldon Street, Finsbury Circus [Lloyd’s])

1.55 - PC Holland returns with Dr Sequiera who pronounces Catherine Eddowes dead.

1.58 - DC Halse, DC Edward Marriott and DS Robert Outram are on duty near to Aldgate Church. They hear Morris’s whistle and head toward Mitre Square.

2.00 - Dc Halse, DC Marriott and DS Outram arrive in Mitre Square.

2.02/2.03 - Inspector Collard arrives in Mitre Square and organises a search. Dr Sequiera is informed the Dr Brown has been sent for so he waits for his arrival before proceeding.

? - Dr Brown is told about the body.

2.05 - DC Halse goes on a search into Wentworth Street via Middlesex Street.

2.18 - Dr. Brown arrives in Mitre Square.

2.20 - The examination of the body begins.

? - D/Superintendent Alfred Lawrence Foster arrives in Mitre Square.

? - DC Halse, who is in Goulston Street, heads back to Mitre Square.

2.20 - PC Long (254A) passes along Goulston Street and sees nothing.

2.20 - PC Pearse hears about the murder.

? - Dr Brown requests that Dr Phillips is sent for to look at the injuries.

2.35 - DC Halse gets back to Mitre Square.

? - Sergeant Jones finds three buttons, a thimble and a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets next to the body.

? - Sergeant Phelps, Inspector Izzard and Sergeant Dudman arrive in Mitre Square to preserve public order.

2.55 - PC Long discovers the apron piece and the chalked message in Goulston Street. He searches the staircases and the surrounding area.

3.00 - The body is placed on the ambulance and is taken to Golden Lane Mortuary.

? - DC Halse, Inspector Collard and the two doctors go to the mortuary.

? - DC Halse (?) notices a piece of her apron is missing.

3.00 - PC Long calls over PC 190H and leaves him in charge of his beat before heading to Commercial Street Station. He leaves the apron piece at the scene.

3.10 - PC Long arrives at Commercial Street Station and reports his findings.

3.30 - PC Long and an Inspector arrive in Goulston Street.

3.40 - PC Long (carrying the apron piece) and the Inspector head for Leman Street Station.

3.45 - The body arrives at the mortuary is stripped and a piece of the victims ear falls from her clothing.

3.50 - PC Long and the Inspector arrive at Leman Street Station.

? - Inspector Collard and Major Smith return to Mitre Square where they learn about the apron piece and the chalked message.

? - DC Halse went to Goulston Street and instructed that the message should be photographed. He remained there.

? - Superintendent Thomas Arnold sends an Inspector to Goulston Street with a sponge awaiting orders to rub out the message.

4.55 - Long hands the apron piece to Dr Phillips who heads for the mortuary.

5.00 - PC Long returns to Goulston Street.

5.05 - DC Halse, Major Smith and Detective Baxter Hunt went to Leman Street Police Station where they learn that the apron piece has been given to Doctor Phillips.

5.10 - Commissioner Charles Warren arrives at Goulston Street.

5.20 - Dr Brown (at least) was still at the mortuary.

5.25 - Dr Phillips arrives at the mortuary with the apron piece.

5.30 - DC Hunt arrives at Goulston Street.

5.30 - Over DC Halse’s objections the message is rubbed out. (Major Smith claimed that Warren personally removed it)

5.42 - Sunrise.

2.30 (pm) - The Post Mortem is conducted by Dr Brown, Dr Sequiera, Dr William Sedgwick Saunders, Medical Officer of Health and Public Analyst, City of London and attended by Dr. Phillips.


Thursday October 4th, Eddowes inquest begins.

…….



Questions

1. Why is McWilliam listed as Inspector at the bottom of his October 27th report when elsewhere he is a Superintendent?

2. What time did McWilliam actually arrive in Mitre Square?


Collard (who arrived at 2.02/2.03) - Mr. M’William, the chief of the detectives, on his arrival shortly afterwards with a number of detectives,

McWilliam himself - In the meantime I had been informed of the murder and arrived at the Detective Office at 3.45 a.m., after ascertaining from S.S. Izzard what steps he had taken in consequence of it; I wired to Scotland Yard informing the Metropolitan Police of the murder and went with D.S. Downes to Bishopsgate Station & from thence to Mitre Square.

- To me, the likeliest explanation would be that McWilliam wrote 3.45 in error. It should have been 2.45? I can think of no other explanation at the moment.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What time did McWilliam actually arrive in Mitre Square?


Collard (who arrived at 2.02/2.03) - “Mr. M’William, the chief of the detectives, on his arrival shortly afterwards with a number of detectives..”

McWilliam himself - “In the meantime I had been informed of the murder and arrived at the Detective Office at 3.45 a.m., after ascertaining from S.S. Izzard what steps he had taken in consequence of it; I wired to Scotland Yard informing the Metropolitan Police of the murder and went with D.S. Downes to Bishopsgate Station & from thence to Mitre Square.”

We talk about the accuracy of times and timings a lot on here (especially me) but sometimes people just make simple errors. It would make more sense if 3.45 was an error by McWilliam and that it was actually 2.45. The above would mean McWilliam getting to Mitre Square at sometime around 4.00. Two hours later than Collard had said. Also, as it appears that the body was removed at 3.00 and that Collard followed it to the mortuary could he really have still been in Mitre Square at around 4.00, or he had returned by 4.00) if that’s the time that McWilliam got there based on being informed at 3.45? Highly unlikely given the time required to get to Golden Lane and given that Collard itemised Catherine’s clothing and belongings (which would have taken a fair amount of time) So..


2.45 - McWilliam arrives at the Detective Office.

2.47 - SS Izzard informs him as to what steps have been taken.

2.49 - McWilliam has wired Scotland Yard.

2.59 - McWilliam and DS arrive at Bishopsgate Station.

3.09 - McWilliam and DS (and possible a couple of officers from Bishopsgate?) arrives in Mitre Square.


Collard describes McWilliam as arriving shortly afterwards and with a number of detectives. I have around 66 minutes? Might it have seemed less at the time? “Shortly after..” isn’t a time of course. Might he have been reluctant to imply that his senior officer was slow to get there and so he used “shortly..”? He arrived with Downes but other officers from Bishopsgate could have joined them, explaining Collard’s ‘number of detectives.’

The above seems a likelier explanation of events. Suggestions, criticisms welcome.

[Geddy2112]

When was Amos Simpson in Mitre Square to retrieve the shawl from Catherine Eddowes?

[Herlock Sholmes]

When was Amos Simpson in Mitre Square to retrieve the shawl from Catherine Eddowes?

Strangely Geddy, no record can be found of him. It’s almost as if he was never there.

[Geddy2112]

Strangely Geddy, no record can be found of him. It’s almost as if he was never there.

Well that's a bit of a bugger. That means erm the shawl is not 'real', then that means the DNA research is not tied to Eddowes and that means.....