How Could Jack Have Learned That Eddowes Knew His Identity?

[Wickerman]

Eddowes left soon after Nichols moved next door to her on 24th August.

Thats right, Kelly told the court they were hop picking in Kent on Aug 24th, 25th, 26th (Mon. Tue. Wed.) the previous week.

[Wickerman]

That she would have said something to her husband is a good point.

c.d.

Unless.....it was him!

[DJA]

Thats right, Kelly told the court they were hop picking in Kent on Aug 24th, 25th, 26th (Mon. Tue. Wed.) the previous week.

Where did you sleep? - On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday we were down at the hop-picking, and came back to London on Thursday.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Might she have thought that she could attain more monetary gain from attempting to blackmail Jack? Met with him near where she was found drunk? She was supposedly penniless, so how did she afford the necessary Gin to achieve that level of drunkenness. Could Jack have notionally agreed to her demands and asked her to meet him later in the same place, which would explain why she headed that way instead of going home? When she returned, did Jack ask her what she had told police, and did she give her name, to which she may have replied "I told them my name was Nothing"? So Jack tells her he has the money and invites her to accompany him to where he has it stashed, fitting in with the story of a messenger boy seeing a couple depart from that location, with the man returning alone shortly after.

I note that it was claimed that Deeming had a letter that was purportedly from Kate, so perhaps they were acquainted. Dave's hypothesis regarding Sutton, which I find to be of interest, might also be considered as he might have persuaded her that the blackmail money was at his premises at No 6.

Just engaging in a little speculation, which I'm sure, by now, will not surprise you.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

While nothing is impossible, the idea of Eddowes, going alone to a dark secluded square at night, in order to blackmail someone who disembowelled Annie in a backyard seems rather improbable to me. Moreover, to wait a week after returning from hopping, to pawn Kelly's boots, and to not have Kelly accompany her as protection, seems to make it even more improbable that she was trying to blackmail Jtr. From what we know of Kate and Kelly's actions, they do not appear to be a couple expecting to come into money anytime soon. Personally, I see nothing in Kate's murder that indicates she was any different from any of the other victims, in that she was picked at random, by a killer out looking to kill, and she just happened to cross his path at the wrong time. I realise that we lack a lot of critical information in these murders, but I've never felt that it is wise to go with bigger explanations as the amount of information gets less! Sure, the less information the greater the possibilities due to the lack of constraints, but the imagination has a way of creating will-o-the-wisps in the voids of our knowledge. Speculation is good, as it is way of trying to view things from many different angles, but one should always be careful in case one convinces oneself that their musings are anything other than speculations (I know you don't do that George, I'm just musing over my morning coffee ).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Thats right, Kelly told the court they were hop picking in Kent on Aug 24th, 25th, 26th (Mon. Tue. Wed.) the previous week.

So, if they were picking in Kent on the 24th, doesn't that mean they would have left London to go to Kent on the 23rd at the latest? Or would they have needed a day or so to find work first? (So head down on the 22nd, Sunday to find work, start Monday type thing?)

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

So, if they were picking in Kent on the 24th, doesn't that mean they would have left London to go to Kent on the 23rd at the latest? Or would they have needed a day or so to find work first? (So head down on the 22nd, Sunday to find work, start Monday type thing?)

- Jeff

That would depend on a number of possibilities Jeff.
Did they walk, or take organised transport (a train from London Bridge to Wateringbury took 5 hours), or thumb their way to Kent.
Given that the Kelly's were poor they likely walked or thumbed their way, but to where, which farm in Kent?
Hop farms were all over Kent, we don't know which farm they worked on.

[JeffHamm]

That would depend on a number of possibilities Jeff.
Did they walk, or take organised transport (a train from London Bridge to Wateringbury took 5 hours), or thumb their way to Kent.
Given that the Kelly's were poor they likely walked or thumbed their way, but to where, which farm in Kent?
Hop farms were all over Kent, we don't know which farm they worked on.

Hi Wickerman,

Yah, I get that we can't pinpoint it exactly, I am just trying to work out the latest date that makes sense for their departure, as that places a limit in ideas. If we can establish that, then earlier is possible, but later gets rules out type thing.

So if a train required 5 hours, it seems to me the minimum departure date would be the 23rd given they were picking on the 24th. Given their lack of money, it seems more probable to me they would try to cut their travel expenses by the alternative methods you suggest, which would tend to move their departure sooner by a day or two, but obviously we can't assert that for sure.

I think, however, their picking on the 24th must mean they left London no later than the 23rd, and if one argues for the 23rd, I think they would have to also argue they had invested in train tickets expecting to make it up in wages given they were working on the 24th. So while a train trip is not impossible, it seems a less probable scenario to me than they had left London even earlier and slowly made their way to Kent over a couple days.

We can't know any of this for sure, maybe they got lucky and hitched a ride on the 23rd, for example, but we don't know that either, so I am just trying to work out likely events rather than me making the claim we can treat these as known facts.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Jeff, I should expand on the train service. It was not regular service but a special Hoppicker's train that made so many stops George Orwell (who took the trip), said it takes 5 hours from Wateringbury to London Bridge, where it terminates. Just in case someone is looking up train schedules

[Wickerman]

...I think, however, their picking on the 24th must mean they left London no later than the 23rd, and if one argues for the 23rd, I think they would have to also argue they had invested in train tickets expecting to make it up in wages given they were working on the 24th. So while a train trip is not impossible, it seems a less probable scenario to me than they had left London even earlier and slowly made their way to Kent over a couple days.

As it was a special train, I wonder if they were charged a special price, or perhaps it was paid for by philanthropic donations?
I also think wagons were hired by farmers to bring workers, or local charities to send workers, and bring them back. But, people did an awful lot of walking in those days, as we know....
Happily, there are a good number of sources on-line that might help solve some of these questions.

[JeffHamm]

As it was a special train, I wonder if they were charged a special price, or perhaps it was paid for by philanthropic donations?
I also think wagons were hired by farmers to bring workers, or local charities to send workers, and bring them back. But, people did an awful lot of walking in those days, as we know....
Happily, there are a good number of sources on-line that might help solve some of these questions.

Ah, ok, so there was a special service specifically for hop-pickers. Hmmm, perhaps fares were paid by the farmers (and no doubt deducted from wages), and jobs were obtained in London, etc? Something like that sounds like a possible working arrangement, and so those on the train would know they had work at the end of the journey. I wonder if there's anything in the newspapers, like advertisements for such things?

Either way, given it's a 5 hour journey, it still seems to me they would have had to have made the trip the day before their first day of work.

It's an interesting question as to how things worked, though, and understanding the various ways in which people found employment during the hop-picking season would be of use in narrowing down the possibilities of what Kate and John Kelly did, and when they did it.

Anyway, thanks for the information. It's given me things to think about.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

While nothing is impossible, the idea of Eddowes, going alone to a dark secluded square at night, in order to blackmail someone who disembowelled Annie in a backyard seems rather improbable to me. Moreover, to wait a week after returning from hopping, to pawn Kelly's boots, and to not have Kelly accompany her as protection, seems to make it even more improbable that she was trying to blackmail Jtr. From what we know of Kate and Kelly's actions, they do not appear to be a couple expecting to come into money anytime soon. Personally, I see nothing in Kate's murder that indicates she was any different from any of the other victims, in that she was picked at random, by a killer out looking to kill, and she just happened to cross his path at the wrong time. I realise that we lack a lot of critical information in these murders, but I've never felt that it is wise to go with bigger explanations as the amount of information gets less! Sure, the less information the greater the possibilities due to the lack of constraints, but the imagination has a way of creating will-o-the-wisps in the voids of our knowledge. Speculation is good, as it is way of trying to view things from many different angles, but one should always be careful in case one convinces oneself that their musings are anything other than speculations (I know you don't do that George, I'm just musing over my morning coffee ).

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

My thinking is that the blackmail attempt would have taken place in a public location such as the Three Nuns Pub, just down the road from where she was found drunk. I recall that she told Kelly that she was going to Bermondsey to ask her daughter for money when she knew that her daughter had not lived there for some time. Perhaps she did not want him to know that she had other plans. I find it curious that she should head back towards Aldgate after her release, rather than heading to her home. If she re-established contact with Jack she may have allowed the prospect of monetary gain to overcome her reservations regarding a walk through the streets, but I admit that Mitre Square would seem to be a bridge too far.

I am not fully persuaded that Lawende was actually looking at Eddowes on that night, with the undue conclusive nature locking thinking into too narrow a path. He didn't see her face and only identified her not-unusual clothing. At this point in time I do not think that the victims were random, and psychologists tell us the attack on the face is indicative of a closer relationship, the attack on the eyes suggesting that she had seen to much. I also find Dave's hypothesis to be interesting in this regard.

Best regards, George

[DJA]

Hi Jeff, I should expand on the train service. It was not regular service but a special Hoppicker's train that made so many stops George Orwell (who took the trip), said it takes 5 hours from Wateringbury to London Bridge, where it terminates. Just in case someone is looking up train schedules

Hop Pickers Special | The Story of the Hoppers | Model Railway #HopPickersSpecial - YouTube

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

My thinking is that the blackmail attempt would have taken place in a public location such as the Three Nuns Pub, just down the road from where she was found drunk. I recall that she told Kelly that she was going to Bermondsey to ask her daughter for money when she knew that her daughter had not lived there for some time. Perhaps she did not want him to know that she had other plans. I find it curious that she should head back towards Aldgate after her release, rather than heading to her home. If she re-established contact with Jack she may have allowed the prospect of monetary gain to overcome her reservations regarding a walk through the streets, but I admit that Mitre Square would seem to be a bridge too far.

I am not fully persuaded that Lawende was actually looking at Eddowes on that night, with the undue conclusive nature locking thinking into too narrow a path. He didn't see her face and only identified her not-unusual clothing. At this point in time I do not think that the victims were random, and psychologists tell us the attack on the face is indicative of a closer relationship, the attack on the eyes suggesting that she had seen to much. I also find Dave's hypothesis to be interesting in this regard.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

I guess I just can't see the idea of blackmailing JtR coming to mind immediately, without there first being just the idea of "I bet I know who it is", which would in turn be a natural topic of conversation with Kelly. Kelly's complete lack of any apparent knowledge of "Kate's suspect" seems a telling indication that Kate didn't really have any suspicions. I guess we differ with respect to the victims randomness, but apart from being woman, desparate for money, out at night, and willing to go to a secluded area with a man, I see no indication they were targeted specifically. Attacking the face in isolation might be more common when there's a relationship, but in the JtR murders, he didn't specifically target the face, rather he focused on the abdomen, and when he felt he had time, he attacked anything and everything, as we see in the Kelly murder. In Kate's case, I just see a growing sense of confidence and a willingness to increase the amount of overkill he commits. There's not much more he could have done to the abdomen region after all.

I suppose we will have to wait for the one true solution to be found before we find out which of us is closest to the mark though. Until then, always a pleasure to exchange ideas.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

I suppose we will have to wait for the one true solution to be found before we find out which of us is closest to the mark though. Until then, always a pleasure to exchange ideas.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I live in hope, but with little confidence, that a true solution will be found in my lifetime. Never the less, I hold in high esteem the privilege of our exchange of ideas.

Best regards, George

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I live in hope, but with little confidence, that a true solution will be found in my lifetime. Never the less, I hold in high esteem the privilege of our exchange of ideas.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

I too have little hope that the solution will be found. I am of the belief that if such were to happen it will require some new discovery of something physically connected to the crimes that results in the possibility of an ancestral DNA based solution. Other forms of information, sadly, are likely to be too inconclusive at this point in time as any new leads they might suggest will just create more questions than answers. And where there are questions, as we know, there will be a plethora of answers offered, all argues to be the one sane anchor in a raging sea of false beliefs.

- Jeff