Location Location Location!

[Krinoid]

and what to hell to make of this???

http://www.newcriminologist.com/article.asp?nid=425

[Krinoid]

can anyone answer the question??

I found this quote and whatI am wondering is there any where else it is documented that amurder took place than the "penny dreadfull."These included Holy Trinity Aldgate, where the East End's first documented murder took place in the early sixteenth century. Brother Martin, a Holy Trinity monk, stabbed to death a woman praying at the high altar and then killed himself. By what is probably an amazing coincidence Jack the Ripper killed Catherine Eddowes on the same site in 1888.

can anyone answer the question??

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

There apparently was one murder at the priory. In 1256, a prior, in a unique interpretation of the spirit of Christianity, allegedly killed another prior, and then wounded himself to make it look like self-defence.

It seems to be accepted as probable fact by most of the authorities on the subject. I came across the account a lot in the course of researching the square, so it does have some credibility. The priory seemed to get burnt down a lot as well, so it did have a bit of a troubled history.

I think the reference to the murder is in either:

Burton, Monastic and Religious Orders or
Allen, Thomas The History and Antiquities of London, Westminster, Southwark, and parts adjacent

I think it's recorded in quite a few specialist books on the history or Mitre Square as well though. I can probably find the reference again if anyone is desperate to know. The supposed murder in 1530 is not documented anywhere that I've seen.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Krinoid]

Thank you for the info! I never heard of this particular murder, just the legendary one.
Mark

[Krinoid]

and what to hell to make of this???

http://www.newcriminologist.com/article.asp?nid=425

Any theories on this one??

[Roy Corduroy]

Don Rumbelow's interpetation of the Abberline walking stick is good enough for me, Krinoid. After all, that penny dreadful was big stuff, so why not put the feature on his goodbye stick. Speaking of which, blow my horn. I posted a short article about another policemen who also got a stick on his retirement click here to see it.

Jane, thank you. Allen can be read online at Google Books, but starting on page 76 his entire section on Trinity did not include a murder. The Janet Burton only has a limited online view, so I don't know.

Not that I'm doubting you.

But yes if you happen to come across the reference, please let us know. In the meantime my library is ordering for me (if they can get it) the book George Hutchinson mentioned above about the archeological survey. I'll see if it comes through.

Roy

[Krinoid]

[QUOTE=Roy Corduroy;145311]Don Rumbelow's interpetation of the Abberline walking stick is good enough for me, Krinoid. After all, that penny dreadful was big stuff, so why not put the feature on his goodbye stick.

Why would he do so?Was he aware more about Mitre square then we know and the priory??

[Krinoid]

The Allen, Thomas The History and Antiquities of London, Westminster, Southwark, book page 82 does mention Glinert's claim In East End chronicles that no one wanted the church and steeple to parishioners or for stone and no one wanted it! Maybe there was a curse associated with it? Wasn't this before the penny dreadfull was published?

[Krinoid]

I guess the From Hell book mentions in footnotes that the walking sticks were sold at the time of the sale of the penny dreadfull mentioned,but is the figure the mad Monk ?? Suprised no one mentioned that on here
Mark

[Krinoid]

should say..

revised-

The Allen, Thomas The History and Antiquities of London, Westminster, Southwark, book page 82 does mention Glinert's claim In East End chronicles that no one wanted the church and steeple of Holy Trinty Aldgate when offered to parishioners or for stone later. Maybe there was a curse associated with it? Wasn't this before the penny dreadfull was published?

[Jane Coram]

Hi Roy,

I'll see if I can dig out the reference for you. I looked through so many books when I was doing the article that I forgot what I did look at in the end. I just guessed it was one of those because the other bits on the page were from there. I'm sure I can dig it out over the weekend for you.

Mind you, just because it was chronicled, it doesn't mean that it was true!

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[Roy Corduroy]

There apparently was one murder at the priory. In 1256, a prior,...allegedly killed another prior, and then wounded himself to make it look like self-defence. It seems to be accepted as probable fact by most of the authorities on the subject. I came across the account a lot in the course of researching the square, so it does have some credibility.

Jane, thanks to your cue, I located it. From Matthew Paris's English History from the Year 1235 to 1273 by J A Giles, London 1854





Thanks again and enjoy your weekend. - Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

The Allen, Thomas The History and Antiquities of London, Westminster, Southwark, book page 82 does mention Glinert's claim In East End chronicles that no one wanted the church and steeple to parishioners or for stone and no one wanted it! Maybe there was a curse associated with it? Wasn't this before the penny dreadfull was published?

No, no curse. Historian Strype (online) says that in 1531 the new owner first offered the church and bells to nearby St Katherine's Church if they would tear down their own church and rebuild, which they declined. He then offered the materials to anyone, with no takers, because " all the Buildings then made about the City were of Brick and Timber. At that time, any Man in the City might have a Cart Load of hard Stone for paving, brought to his Door for 6d. or 7d. with the Carriage."

Some of the stones were eventually used to build St James, Dukes Place in 1622. And a small remnant of the priory remained until it too came down in the 1800s.



And four of the church bells were hauled out Whitechapel Road to Stepney.


From the 1905 London Survey Committee

What does it all mean? That in 1888, at the height of the Ripper scare, an enterprising writer took the story of the ancient murder and sexed it up in the total fantasy version The Curse on Mitre Square. Which can be read online too. Just seach it.

And honestly, Krinoid, thank you for bringing it up. London history is fascinating.

Roy

[Jane Coram]

Hi Roy,

It's also mentioned in --

A History of the County of London: Volume 1: London within the Bars, Westminster and Southwark

William Page (editor) 1909

pp. 465-475

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

Glad I found it or I would have looked a right Charlie!!!

[Jane Coram]

Just an afterthought --

If anyone wants to read the article on Mitre Square, which includes a lot of its history, just pm me and I'll email the pdf.

xxxxxx