How culpable were the Police in Kate's murder?

[Michael W Richards]

As Monty pointed out the City Police were not responsible for housing the homeless, and unlike the Metro policy on D & D's at that time, the city had a "catch and release policy" if you will....if the person shows evidence of a return of their faculties after a period of incarceration, then answers a few simple questions, they were discharged back into the night.

Kates turn when she stepped outside the station seems to have been the factor that doomed her if anything, had she gone in the opposite direction and to find her supposed partner in life...well, who knows.

It is interesting to note when dealing with this issue though that Mitre Square, on the night of Kates murder, had many policemen within shouting distance,..... Pearce, Watkins, Harvey, Marriot, Halse, Outram, George Morris..retired, .....its almost like a closed set, secured by perimeter police. Plus of course the Clapps and the nurse.

Cheers

[Damaso Marte]

They let her out late at night when they were on heightened alert for a killer that stalked single women. How is that for a reason?

A killer who had not struck in a month, who many thought may have been in custody (Ischenschmidt).

[Damaso Marte]

Also how was the night watchman culpable. What duty did he owe Kate?

Presumably the watchmen's only legal duties were to protect the warehouse he was watching. But it stands to reason that if the watchmen had been doing a better job or simply been more alert, he may have been able to save Kate.

There are theories of morality under which the watchman is culpable, that's the entirety of my point. I come to this forum to discuss the murders, not to debate morality.

[GUT]

G'day DM

But not if he saw and heard nothing.

And that is a recurrent theme in the murders, little seen, nothing heard.

[Damaso Marte]

G'day DM

But not if he saw and heard nothing.

And that is a recurrent theme in the murders, little seen, nothing heard.

Yes I was insinuating that the watchmen may have been asleep during the murder.

I agree that silence is a theme of the ripper killings. Part of why I think the killer was sane: he clearly took steps to minimize the amount of sound he made, the amount of evidence he left behind, etc. Nobody who mutilates prostitutes is 100% OK in the head, but the Ripper was sane enough to know that what he was doing was wrong (at least in the eyes of society) and that he should take care not to get caught.

[GUT]

I.E. he was not legally insane, he knew right from wrong.

[Monty]

Nightwatchman Morris was working inside the counting house of Kearley and Tongue, sweeping, as he did every Saturday evening.

This was confirmed by Watkins.

Monty

[Barnaby]

If the police had a policy of keeping every drunk through till morning, then anyone without doss money, or who found the doss houses full on a cold or rainy night, would probably try to get alcohol somehow, or feign drunkenness, just to get out of the weather for the night.

The police probably streeted people ASAP for a good reason.

I suppose this is true in theory, but if people were that motivated to escape a cold night they could cause trouble, etc. and get arrested. Did this happen often?

[Barnaby]

G'day Barnaby

But are you sure you're not applying 2014 standards to 1888 actions?

I am. You are quite correct.

Here is a what-if: Suppose it was 1:30 AM when Eddowes was released, when word was circulating that "the Ripper" had struck again and was on the loose. Then are the police culpable for releasing her?

[Lechmere]

Damaso
By the time of the double event, over twenty newspapers had reported that Iscenschmid had been given an alibi by his brother so he was no longer in the frame.

[GUT]

G'day Barnaby

Here is a what-if: Suppose it was 1:30 AM when Eddowes was released, when word was circulating that "the Ripper" had struck again and was on the loose. Then are the police culpable for releasing her?

In my opinion NO. What were they to do keep every woman locked up. I bet if they had said "No you can't go because the boogey man might get you" Kate would have kicked up a stink. The only reason to detain her would be f she was still incapable or being a nuisance.

[markmorey5]

G'day Markmorey5

There is reference in one of the earlier cases to a marred couple, witnesses getting home at about 1:30 am and then the wife going out to buy them supper at about 2:00.

That to me is one of the most intriguing aspects of the ripper case, these were not deserted streets with no one out and about.

Hello GUT,
It is almost spectacular that the killer was able to kill, mutilate and get away without being caught, given the usual numbers of individuals on the streets at all hours of the night, not to mention the extra police and the vigilantees. Obviously methodical and he weighed up the risks and then struck suddenly when they reached a place where he was unlikely to be caught. Probably he knew the prostitutes were taking him to a place where they were unlikely to be disturbed while having sex.

Once the killer cut the victims throat she would have been unable to make a sound even if not actually dead (bleeding to death does take some time before falling unconcious), so most likely it was a sudden blow struck with great force in the right place.

Back to Kate. After many of the killings the streets were reported as being deserted late at night, although shortly after they returned to the usual numbers out and about. So turfing out a partly sobered up drunk would not have been seen as being risky except in hindsight.

[markmorey5]

Yes I was insinuating that the watchmen may have been asleep during the murder.

I agree that silence is a theme of the ripper killings. Part of why I think the killer was sane: he clearly took steps to minimize the amount of sound he made, the amount of evidence he left behind, etc. Nobody who mutilates prostitutes is 100% OK in the head, but the Ripper was sane enough to know that what he was doing was wrong (at least in the eyes of society) and that he should take care not to get caught.

I sort-of remember the psychology I studied many long years ago and some parts of it more than others (you can guess which parts are clearer). The Ripper was a classic psychopath, and he was likely to be cool, calm, methodical and he would have said or done anything to get what he wanted. Remember that he had to convince women to take him to lonely places in order to have sex, so they had no idea he was a serial killer or dangerous in any way.

The majority of senior executives and chief executives today are social psychopaths, so they won't kill but they have many of the other attributes. If you use this as a yardstick; they're intelligent, persuasive but selfishly flawed, then you will get an idea of what the Ripper may have been like.

What we don't know is why the Ripper targetted these women and did what he did. We can partially dissect some psychopaths in hindsight like Adolph Hitler because we know what he did with and to his neice, but even then we don't know reason for hatred of the Jews. We can't do anything with the Ripper except observe that he targetted certain women in certain ways for reasons unknown (hated women and killed prostitutes because they were available, hated prostitutes for some reason: mother hatred, venerial disease etc etc).

[GUT]

G'day markmorey 5

It is almost spectacular that the killer was able to kill, mutilate and get away without being caught, given the usual numbers of individuals on the streets at all hours of the night,

I think I posted previously that to me it is one of the most intriguing issues in the case.

[Rosella]

Another is why did Kate Eddowes not head off homeward bound but instead walked away from the police station in the opposite direction?