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  • Scissors?

    I was reading about the Brixton, 1900, murder of Mary Kate Wakenell, who was killed via a large pair of scissors - and what struck me was mention of V-shaped cuts.

    http://www.urban75.org/brixton/featu...xton-1900.html

    Scissors would produce a triangular 'flap' of skin far more easily then the blade of a knife. I'm not glued to the idea of anyone carrying both a knife and big scissors about, but it's one way those several flaps of skin (all about the same dimensions, I think?) might come about.

  • #2
    G'Day Ausgirl

    Interesting, but aren't the V Shaped cuts taking about the shape of the wound as opposed to a V shaped flap of skin.

    How do you propose that he started the cut, by plunging one blade of the scissors in and then cutting?

    I just can't see how it could work in an efficient manner.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, what sort of prompted me to post was a vinyl sofa of my early childhood, which I took to with a pair of mum's kitchen shears. Adorable, no? Anyway, it had v-shaped marks in it, which I actually thought of before poor Catherine. If you're trying to cut something flattish with scissors, you press down and snip. It helps if the area is cushioned, so a bit of vinyl sofa or face gets pushed up into the cutting area via pressure. Then snip and there's a neat V-shaped mark, which can be quite neat if the scissors are sharp.

      And, as I understand it, the V-marks are described as 'flaps of skin'?

      edit: and sorry, I ought to add, this post: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5500 which I didn't wish to revive as it's quite old, has a proposed knife-wound, but this a relevant part (bold is by me):

      One possible flaw in the theory:
      Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown, London police surgeon called in at the murder,
      arrived at Mitre Square around 2:00 AM.
      Part of his report is as follows.

      :There was on each side of cheek a cut which peeled up the skin, forming a triangular
      flap about an inch and a half. :


      Although my method does leave a tringular shaped cut it does not leave a 'triangular flap' as such
      if we interpret Dr. Brown's meaning of a 'triangular flap' being the 'inner' body of the triangular flap section
      about an inch and a half long.

      It would have been clearer to describe that as a triangular shaped 'tongue' of skin which peeled up!

      That may be nit picking by me to try and support my ideas but at least I'm bringing in
      the written facts by Dr. Brown.

      However, My method does peel up the skin to the 'outer' edges of the cut, thus creating
      triangular 'flaps'!


      The problem I had when trying to replicate the triangular cuts when using the edge of the
      knife on my model(as one would when peeling an apple) being that I could not perform an accurate
      and uniform shape of cut similar to those as seen on the Eddowes photo.
      Scissors, in my limited experience of hacking into cushiony-things with large shears, -do- make reasonably uniform marks.
      Last edited by Ausgirl; 02-16-2014, 11:30 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        G'Day again Ausgirl

        No problems with the Ripper Victims being V shaped flaps of skin my question is if the ones on the victim in the article were V shaped flaps of skin or I presume from the article V shaped stab wounds.
        G U T

        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

        Comment


        • #5
          It really doesn't say clearly, but the V-shaped wounds are listed under 'other, minor' wounds as opposed to deeper killing stabs. I'm not sure how thrusting stabs with scissors might produce notable V-shaped wounds, but a cutting action with sharp scissors (which those were, in both the Brixton and sofa cases) sure would.

          Comment


          • #6
            but a cutting action with sharp scissors (which those were, in both the Brixton and sofa cases) sure would.
            But only if you cut twice?
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #7
              No.. It's very possible to leave marks like that, I've been saying, in cushiony things like sofas and faces, with scissors. It's a distinctly V-shaped mark, achieved with pressure applied and one good snip that possibly doesn't follow all the way through. Like a half-cut (I wasn't strong enough to cut actual chunks out of the sofa, and the partial cuts were a pile of V's).

              I am probably not speaking clearly at all, I hope you can see what I mean there.

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              • #8
                So are you suggesting something like pinching the flesh and then cutting, not that he had to pinch it but that sort of result?

                I may have miss understood you I thought you were talking about the abdominal flaps, but are you talking about the cuts on the face?

                If you mean the face it may have worked, but why use scissors on the face and a knofe for the rest,
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why? Well - I don't know, ha. All I'm saying is that it's a pretty decent explanation for the (yes, facial) cuts, or at least better than a knife, I think. Whether it feasibly occurred, I dunno. But it -is- feasible that scissors can make those V marks.

                  How do we know the abdominal cuts weren't done with shears?

                  I am not trying to nail down a theory, but it could be a possibility. At least for the facial V-shapes.
                  Last edited by Ausgirl; 02-17-2014, 12:17 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GUT View Post
                    So are you suggesting something like pinching the flesh and then cutting, not that he had to pinch it but that sort of result?
                    Yup! exactly

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      G'Day Ausgirl

                      That I might buy but I really don't think he was using scissors or sheers when he had a perfectly serviceable knife, or two or three.
                      G U T

                      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A close-up of the right cheek shows the flap of skin to be more oval than triangular. Passing the blade of a knife directly across the face, dividing the bridge of the nose and slicing into both cheeks will produce this effect.

                        Regards, Jon S.

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