The Name Game

[Ms Diddles]

no but i checked it out on wiki, and im definitely gonna watch

Yeah, Abby!

Give it a go.

It's really funny!

Edit: The TV series Spaced is great too. It's the same guys.

[Aethelwulf]

yes i guess, i just always thought referring to someone as grasshopper meant that, ie youngster, student etc. wasnt sure if it originated with the kung fu tv show though. thought it might go further back than that.

Yes do it you'll be crying with laughter. Let me just give you this as not to derail the thread any further - set me off on right fit:

Angel corners Skinner at Sandford's model village, and after a brief fight, Skinner is impaled through the jaw by a miniature church steeple. Frank attempts to escape in Angel's car but a missing swan that Angel and Danny had recaptured earlier attacks him.

[Abby Normal]

I must be old I guess. I was thinking he was referring to the old Kung Fu series where David Carradine was referred to as young grasshopper from his mentor.

yes i guess, i just always thought referring to someone as grasshopper meant that, ie youngster, student etc. wasnt sure if it originated with the kung fu tv show though. thought it might go further back than that.

[jerryd]

This made me laugh. Does Hot Fuzz mean anything to you? Scene with the vicar 'f*** off grasshopper' bang bang bang. Perhaps one of the funniest films ever made. Or perhaps just my childish sense of humour!

I must be old I guess. I was thinking he was referring to the old Kung Fu series where David Carradine was referred to as young grasshopper from his mentor.

[Abby Normal]

This made me laugh. Does Hot Fuzz mean anything to you? Scene with the vicar 'f*** off grasshopper' bang bang bang. Perhaps one of the funniest films ever made. Or perhaps just my childish sense of humour!

no but i checked it out on wiki, and im definitely gonna watch

[The Rookie Detective]

This made me laugh. Does Hot Fuzz mean anything to you? Scene with the vicar 'f*** off grasshopper' bang bang bang. Perhaps one of the funniest films ever made. Or perhaps just my childish sense of humour!

I'm with you on that, one of the funniest movies. I'm convinced the Hot Fuzz duo would have caught JTR haha!

[c.d.]

In other words, was the name Mary Kelly adopted by some of the local prostitutes as a form of Jane Doe?

Yeah, I had that same thought. And would the police bother to go to great lengths to disprove it and get a correct name? Since the crime was prostitution and there being a good chance of the woman being brought in again in a few weeks I can see them just letting it slide.

c.d.

[Aethelwulf]

easy there grasshopper.

This made me laugh. Does Hot Fuzz mean anything to you? Scene with the vicar 'f*** off grasshopper' bang bang bang. Perhaps one of the funniest films ever made. Or perhaps just my childish sense of humour!

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Sam,

She had Conway tattooed on her arm, and I dont recall seeing anything that indicates she used the surname Kelly before that last 24 hours. And she also references Dorset Street in one of those aliases. She also meets with someone unknown that Saturday afternoon and ends up in jail for public drunkeness, despite the fact that the pawn money bought her and John breakfast, and she had none left when they parted. We also have John waiting a few days to look into Kates absence, despite the fact he knew that she had been taken to jail Saturday night and still had'nt heard from her by Monday night. Even though he claimed they were together almost every night. Then we have John claim that he could apprehend the killer if given some policemen to place at certain locations. The inference being he had an idea what this alleged killer looked like, or at least where he could be found.

Kates murder, with all this unusual and contradictory evidence...like when the Boots were actually pawned...and why Kelly didnt try and find out where Kate was despite knowing that even if she was kept in jail for the night, as Municipal law at the time dictated but not City law, she would have been released Sun am at the latest....isnt a straight forward case. John doesnt see or hear from the woman he claimed he spent nearly every night with Sat night, Sun or Monday...yet isnt raising any alarms.

Once you accumulate a relatively sizable amount of odd occurrences and actions, one might wonder more about the choice of aliases, and addresses, she uses. Considering that between the 2 aliases she uses the names Mary Jane Kelly of _6 Dorset Street, and that the next victim alleged to be killed by this same man is Mary Jane Kelly who lives in a courtyard at 26 Dorset Street, one might forgo an easy dismissal of those aliases as "common" .

One last point, If using the surname of Kelly is so commonly done and is done by Kate, why didnt she identify herself as a Kelly at Bishopsgate? Why "no-one"? Seems like she decided to be unknown, rather than under an alias.

Excellent post.

One slight amendment; Catherine Eddowes called herself
Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street which is just across the road from the Eastern End of Dorset Street I believe?

There's a chance she was claiming to be Mary (Jane) Kelly for whatever reason.

I just find it astonishing how she tells the policeman as she's being discharged that she's Mary Kelly...and then she ends up being murdered shortly afterward...and then another woman who also calls herself Mary Kelly (but likely wasn't her real name EITHER) and who lives a stone's throw away from Fashion Street (In Millers Court) is then also murdered by the ripper.

One thing can be certain, the killer of Eddowes and Kelly was the same man.
And it turns out he butchers 2 women who told others they were called Mary Kelly.

MJK told another woman that she was frightened by the idea she would be next and it makes me wonder whether her name had something to do with it.

Another interesting little snippet is that Eddowes sang in her cell in which she was held before sobering up...and MJK also sang in a similar manner in Miller's Court.

Was Eddowes pretending to be Mary Kelly?

And could the name Mary Kelly have been a name used by multiple women as a form of identity within a particular group?
I say this because there were multiple witnesses who claimed to have seen Mary Kelly hours after she was already dead...
But what if the woman who was seen the following morning also called herself Mary Kelly?

In other words, was the name Mary Kelly adopted by some of the local prostitutes as a form of Jane Doe?

[Abby Normal]

Hi all


I wanted to start a new thread regarding some thoughts and queries I have regarding Catherine Eddowes and her murder.


Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone feels there's any significance to the fact that shortly before she was murdered, she gave her name as Mary (Ann) Kelly.

She gave her name as Mary Kelly on at least 2 separate occasions, once to the policeman when she was released from her cell the night she was murdered and prior to that, to the person at the pawn shop.

My question is, did she tell her killer her name was Mary Kelly? Or Kate Kelly?

In other words, did Catherine Eddowes identify herself as someone else to her killer; a name that matched his next victim Mary J Kelly?

Catherine Eddowes stated that she thought she knew the identity of the killer and because she said this in public, it may be fair as assume she told a lot of people in a short space of time.

What if the real killer had heard that a woman believed she could identify him and he needed to act to silence her.

When you add this to the fact that Mary J Kelly was later butchered in Miller's Court, and the fact that Catherine Eddowes had mentioned her name was Mary Kelly on multiple occasions shortly before her death, what if the killer was on the lookout for a prostitute named Mary Kelly because he needed to silence her...

Ergo, what if he had heard that a woman called Mary Kelly could identify him and in his mind he butchered 2 women who had gave the same first name and surname?

Could Eddowes have been his target (believing she was called Mary Kelly because that's what she had said before in public and that's the name of the woman he had heard could identify him. He never knew her OR MJK by face, but only by name.

And could the whole double event have been a ruse to disguise the fact he was after Eddowes (believing she was called Mary Kelly) He then deliberately used Stride as an active decoy for the main event and all he wanted to do with Stride was to kill her and he had no intention of butchering her. He needed a decoy murder away from the area he wanted to focus on.

Now it's fair to assume that the killer knew the police beats and if he did go for her because she blagged about knowing who he was, then perhaps he followed her over the days leading up to her death.
When he butchered Eddowes, it wasn't just about killing her like Chapman and Nichols, he also wanted to attack her eyes and ears (and nose,) as a means of targeting her sensory areas as a way of making sure she could no longer see or hear him both literally and metaphorically.

And after he kills Eddowes he takes a piece of her apron, but because he's in a hurry he cuts himself for the first time. He cuts the apron to cover his wound and exits towards Goulston Street. But he can't go back to his lodging house/home because he is cut and needs to wait...and so he hides in the basement area of the tenement block close to where he then later places the piece of apron...with his blood on it. the reason why the policeman who passed the location DIDN'T see the piece of apron there is because it wasn't there...but the killer was hiding nearby because he couldn't risk going any further until he had stemmed the bleeding.

He waited for a considerable amount of time and then when the coast was clear he placed the apron at the location he intended, just below an anti-Semitic piece of chalk writing that had been scribbled there recently and which he had known about having passed the area prior to the murder.

The problem was...he thought he had just killed a woman called Mary Kelly, the woman who had bragged about knowing his identity.

It may have confused him that Eddowes didn't in fact recognize him and that she had been wrong.. but he sought to kill her anyway.

How infuriating it must have been to then realize he had silenced the wrong woman.

He then made inquiries around the lodging houses/other prostitutes, and when he discovered a woman called Mary Kelly who dwelled at Miller's Court, he then targeted MJK just to be sure it wasn't her who recognized him.

He then did the same facial attacks to MJK, but a lot more extensive...


I find it also interesting that the identity of MJK has eluded us for many years. Was she Irish as she claimed?
The potential Welsh link is particularly interesting because it is in fact Eddowes who has the names Evans and Phillips in her family line.

Did Eddowes call herself Mary Kelly because she knew Mary J Kelly?

And was MJK's real name completely different to her birth name?

Were Eddowes and Kelly connected through family?

Why did Eddowes use the name the night she died which matched the name of the killer's next victim?


Surely that's too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence?


Thoughts on my rather radical hypothesis please?

easy there grasshopper. this way leads to madness.

[Michael W Richards]

"Mary", "Jane", "Ann(e)" and indeed "Mary Jane/Mary Ann" were extremely common names for women back then. Eddowes was going steady with a man named "Kelly", which was itself a very common surname amongst the sizeable Irish population of the East End.

Hi Sam,

She had Conway tattooed on her arm, and I dont recall seeing anything that indicates she used the surname Kelly before that last 24 hours. And she also references Dorset Street in one of those aliases. She also meets with someone unknown that Saturday afternoon and ends up in jail for public drunkeness, despite the fact that the pawn money bought her and John breakfast, and she had none left when they parted. We also have John waiting a few days to look into Kates absence, despite the fact he knew that she had been taken to jail Saturday night and still had'nt heard from her by Monday night. Even though he claimed they were together almost every night. Then we have John claim that he could apprehend the killer if given some policemen to place at certain locations. The inference being he had an idea what this alleged killer looked like, or at least where he could be found.

Kates murder, with all this unusual and contradictory evidence...like when the Boots were actually pawned...and why Kelly didnt try and find out where Kate was despite knowing that even if she was kept in jail for the night, as Municipal law at the time dictated but not City law, she would have been released Sun am at the latest....isnt a straight forward case. John doesnt see or hear from the woman he claimed he spent nearly every night with Sat night, Sun or Monday...yet isnt raising any alarms.

Once you accumulate a relatively sizable amount of odd occurrences and actions, one might wonder more about the choice of aliases, and addresses, she uses. Considering that between the 2 aliases she uses the names Mary Jane Kelly of _6 Dorset Street, and that the next victim alleged to be killed by this same man is Mary Jane Kelly who lives in a courtyard at 26 Dorset Street, one might forgo an easy dismissal of those aliases as "common" .

One last point, If using the surname of Kelly is so commonly done and is done by Kate, why didnt she identify herself as a Kelly at Bishopsgate? Why "no-one"? Seems like she decided to be unknown, rather than under an alias.

[John Wheat]

I agree John the name stuff is a bit of nonsense I think. When I was researching my own family history I found a lot of Mary Janes and Polly Annes. They were just common names. Remind me, didn't beadle also make some comment on the dates of the murders and either birth/death dates of Bury's family? I don't buy any pattern based on the dates TBH because if you were to factor in failed attempts they would probably look less like a pattern. I suspect he had a cooling off period and then it was a case of finding the someone willing to go inot a dark corner and no police about. IMO.

Hi Aethelwulf
I don't recall Beadle making any comment regarding the dates of the murders and birth/death dates of Bury's family. Beadle does however propose that Bury was working to some sort of internal clock though with the C5 murders happening at either the start or end of the month. However I do still think the overkill on Mary Jane Kelly could be possibly explained by Bury learning her name was Mary Jane.
Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

"Mary", "Jane", "Ann(e)" and indeed "Mary Jane/Mary Ann" were extremely common names for women back then. Eddowes was going steady with a man named "Kelly", which was itself a very common surname amongst the sizeable Irish population of the East End.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Rookie Detective

William Beadle goes into quite a bit of detail regarding the names each of the C5 was known as in his book Jack the Ripper Unmasked. Which is about how Bury was in all likelihood the Ripper. It explains the case as to why Bury was the Ripper. For various reasons and one is the names each of the C5 were known as at the time of there murders. If you want to know more about Bury then it is a good place to start. However I would say the name idea is far and away the least convincing point regarding Bury as the Ripper.

Cheers John

I agree John the name stuff is a bit of nonsense I think. When I was researching my own family history I found a lot of Mary Janes and Polly Annes. They were just common names. Remind me, didn't beadle also make some comment on the dates of the murders and either birth/death dates of Bury's family? I don't buy any pattern based on the dates TBH because if you were to factor in failed attempts they would probably look less like a pattern. I suspect he had a cooling off period and then it was a case of finding the someone willing to go inot a dark corner and no police about. IMO.

[John Wheat]

It's interesting that you said that because I have also wondered whether based on the canonical 5, where there was any significance to the first and last murder victims both being called Mary...

And it's interesting that Bury's mother and sister were both called Mary Jane..

BUT...

And it's a big BUT...

Mary Jane was also the daughter of another person of interest in the case... Lechmere

Lechmere's oldest son/child and namesake, died just days after Mary Jane was born.
His wife had just given birth and so wasn't fully able to care for their poorly son.

Mary Jane grew up with Charles Lechmere's mother for reasons unknown, but it would be fair to assume by the timings that there was resentment for Mary Jane because her birth fell at the same time his son was dying.

The timing couldn't have been worse.

Eventually all seems to have been reconciled because when Mary Jane Lechmere got married, her father Charles was one of the 2 witnesses at her wedding.

...and so...

Because I don't think Lechmere was the killer, then I feel the name connection is purely coincidental because what can be applied to Bury can also be applied to Lechmere and that just doesn't feel right comparing the 2 men.

Bury ticks ALL the boxes

Lechmere was a witness at a murder with no history or evidence of violence or murderous intent.


But when we look at Bury as an isolated case, then the name Mary Jane may of course be more relevent.

Interesting stuff indeed!

Hi Rookie Detective

William Beadle goes into quite a bit of detail regarding the names each of the C5 was known as in his book Jack the Ripper Unmasked. Which is about how Bury was in all likelihood the Ripper. It explains the case as to why Bury was the Ripper. For various reasons and one is the names each of the C5 were known as at the time of there murders. If you want to know more about Bury then it is a good place to start. However I would say the name idea is far and away the least convincing point regarding Bury as the Ripper.

Cheers John