The Name Game

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Eten, you beat me to it with your valid points. I would add that even in the unlikely event JtR knew Eddowes was in the police cells, he had no way of knowing when she would be released.

That's an extremely good point in practical terms and the only way to come anywhere near to explaining it, would be if the was following her in some way.

There is a possibility that the killer was connected through the police, but not necessarily a policeman.

The only people who lived in Mitre Square was a policeman and a retired policeman/night Watchman. The square and surrounding areas were said to be heavily patrolled and there were even 3 plain clothes detectives on duty in the area at the time...and yet he comes and goes like a ghost.

How is that possible without help or a detailed knowledge of his escape route that required a lot of luck to not just evade capture, but to not even be seen after the murder.

For me, I believe the killer used the drain pipe situated a few feet away from the murder site and climbed to escape via the roof of the building.

That would explain why NO ONE saw anyone leave or walking at ground level.

I also think that he used this escape method for Nichols by escaping over the fence next to the train line.

If he had previously/current military experience i.e. soldier or sailor, then he not only would of had the skills to kill quietly, he would have had the skills to climb and use unorthodox methods of escape.


Why no one ever suggests using height as an escape route baffles me.

Humans as a species have never had ANY ariel predators throughout our entire existence as a species and so what's the one thing that humans hardly do when looking at their surroundings?

We hardly ever look UP!

IN 1888 before planes there was even less need to look up.
And so, I believe one of the reasons why he always seemed to evade capture is because he knew his escape routes via the roof network of the buildings in and around the area.

This is certainly more likely than him just disappearing into thin air like a ghost.

But I digress...

And my apologies for going off thread topic there!

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Rookie Detective.
It could all be coincidence but William Henry Bury's mother and sister were both called Mary Jane. However I'm not sure the Ripper would have learnt the names of any of his victims other than Mary Jane Kelly. Although this could explain the overkill on Mary Jane Kelly.
Cheers John

It's interesting that you said that because I have also wondered whether based on the canonical 5, where there was any significance to the first and last murder victims both being called Mary...

And it's interesting that Bury's mother and sister were both called Mary Jane..

BUT...

And it's a big BUT...

Mary Jane was also the daughter of another person of interest in the case... Lechmere

Lechmere's oldest son/child and namesake, died just days after Mary Jane was born.
His wife had just given birth and so wasn't fully able to care for their poorly son.

Mary Jane grew up with Charles Lechmere's mother for reasons unknown, but it would be fair to assume by the timings that there was resentment for Mary Jane because her birth fell at the same time his son was dying.

The timing couldn't have been worse.

Eventually all seems to have been reconciled because when Mary Jane Lechmere got married, her father Charles was one of the 2 witnesses at her wedding.

...and so...

Because I don't think Lechmere was the killer, then I feel the name connection is purely coincidental because what can be applied to Bury can also be applied to Lechmere and that just doesn't feel right comparing the 2 men.

Bury ticks ALL the boxes

Lechmere was a witness at a murder with no history or evidence of violence or murderous intent.


But when we look at Bury as an isolated case, then the name Mary Jane may of course be more relevent.

Interesting stuff indeed!

[John Wheat]

Maybe its not a coincidence that 2 women with the same name (Eddowes calles herself Mary Kelly on more than one occasion) are murdered by the same man.

Why did Eddowes call herself Mary Kelly?

Glad its perfectly normal and not a coincidence

MARY ANN Nichols
ANN Chapman
MARY ANN KELLY (Eddowes)
MARY JANE KELLY (Not real name

Hi Rookie Detective.
It could all be coincidence but William Henry Bury's mother and sister were both called Mary Jane. However I'm not sure the Ripper would have learnt the names of any of his victims other than Mary Jane Kelly. Although this could explain the overkill on Mary Jane Kelly.
Cheers John

[Enigma]

Hi Eten, you beat me to it with your valid points. I would add that even in the unlikely event JtR knew Eddowes was in the police cells, he had no way of knowing when she would be released.

[etenguy]

Hi RD

Some things to think about in relation to your post.

a) how would the killer know where Catherine Eddowes would be on that fateful night?
b) how would the killer know the name Catherine Eddowes used at the police station (or the pawn brokers for that matter when she used the name Jane Kelly (and previously Emily Birrell I think))?
c) How does your theory fit with the earlier victims, to rely solely on a most common first name would not likely accomplish the stated aim.

These are some of the questions I was asked when I first found out about the name issue you identify and pondering these brought me to the conclusion it was a simple, but seductive, coincidence.

[The Rookie Detective]

Maybe its not a coincidence that 2 women with the same name (Eddowes calles herself Mary Kelly on more than one occasion) are murdered by the same man.

Why did Eddowes call herself Mary Kelly?

Glad its perfectly normal and not a coincidence

MARY ANN Nichols
ANN Chapman
MARY ANN KELLY (Eddowes)
MARY JANE KELLY (Not real name

[The Rookie Detective]

Thoughts on my rather radical hypothesis please?

No disrespect meant but it sounds like the plot of an old Charlie Chan movie where the murderer turns out to be the Chief of Police. Best suited for Hollywood not real life.

c.d.

Ha ha love that

[The Rookie Detective]

Seems like I can't edit my own post for the first time in years ...

Strange that

[c.d.]

Thoughts on my rather radical hypothesis please?

No disrespect meant but it sounds like the plot of an old Charlie Chan movie where the murderer turns out to be the Chief of Police. Best suited for Hollywood not real life.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

You know you're onto something when someone focuses on and opens with questions relating to grammatical errors... Allow me to "EDIT" accordingly...

My apologies ha ha

[FriedKidne]

"And could the whole double event have been a ruse to disguise the fact he was after Eddowes (believing she was called Mary Kelly) He then deliberately used Stride as an active decoy for the main event and all he wanted to do with Stride was to kill her and he had no intention of butchering her."

By "then" you mean...?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


I wanted to start a new thread regarding some thoughts and queries I have regarding Catherine Eddowes and her murder.


Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone feels there's any significance to the fact that shortly before she was murdered, she gave her name as Mary (Ann) Kelly.

She gave her name as Mary Kelly on at least 2 separate occasions, once to the policeman when she was released from her cell the night she was murdered and prior to that, to the person at the pawn shop.

My question is, did she tell her killer her name was Mary Kelly? Or Kate Kelly?

In other words, did Catherine Eddowes identify herself as someone else to her killer; a name that matched his next victim Mary J Kelly?

Catherine Eddowes stated that she thought she knew the identity of the killer and because she said this in public, it may be fair as assume she told a lot of people in a short space of time.

What if the real killer had heard that a woman believed she could identify him and he needed to act to silence her.

When you add this to the fact that Mary J Kelly was later butchered in Miller's Court, and the fact that Catherine Eddowes had mentioned her name was Mary Kelly on multiple occasions shortly before her death, what if the killer was on the lookout for a prostitute named Mary Kelly because he needed to silence her...

Ergo, what if he had heard that a woman called Mary Kelly could identify him and in his mind he butchered 2 women who had gave the same first name and surname?

Could Eddowes have been his target (believing she was called Mary Kelly because that's what she had said before in public and that's the name of the woman he had heard could identify him. He never knew her OR MJK by face, but only by name.

And could the whole double event have been a ruse to disguise the fact he was after Eddowes (believing she was called Mary Kelly) He then deliberately used Stride as an active decoy for the main event and all he wanted to do with Stride was to kill her and he had no intention of butchering her. He needed a decoy murder away from the area he wanted to focus on.

Now it's fair to assume that the killer knew the police beats and if he did go for her because she blagged about knowing who he was, then perhaps he followed her over the days leading up to her death.
When he butchered Eddowes, it wasn't just about killing her like Chapman and Nichols, he also wanted to attack her eyes and ears (and nose,) as a means of targeting her sensory areas as a way of making sure she could no longer see or hear him both literally and metaphorically.

And after he kills Eddowes he takes a piece of her apron, but because he's in a hurry he cuts himself for the first time. He cuts the apron to cover his wound and exits towards Goulston Street. But he can't go back to his lodging house/home because he is cut and needs to wait...and so he hides in the basement area of the tenement block close to where he then later places the piece of apron...with his blood on it. the reason why the policeman who passed the location DIDN'T see the piece of apron there is because it wasn't there...but the killer was hiding nearby because he couldn't risk going any further until he had stemmed the bleeding.

He waited for a considerable amount of time and then when the coast was clear he placed the apron at the location he intended, just below an anti-Semitic piece of chalk writing that had been scribbled there recently and which he had known about having passed the area prior to the murder.

The problem was...he thought he had just killed a woman called Mary Kelly, the woman who had bragged about knowing his identity.

It may have confused him that Eddowes didn't in fact recognize him and that she had been wrong.. but he sought to kill her anyway.

How infuriating it must have been to then realize he had silenced the wrong woman.

He then made inquiries around the lodging houses/other prostitutes, and when he discovered a woman called Mary Kelly who dwelled at Miller's Court, he then targeted MJK just to be sure it wasn't her who recognized him.

He then did the same facial attacks to MJK, but a lot more extensive...


I find it also interesting that the identity of MJK has eluded us for many years. Was she Irish as she claimed?
The potential Welsh link is particularly interesting because it is in fact Eddowes who has the names Evans and Phillips in her family line.

Did Eddowes call herself Mary Kelly because she knew Mary J Kelly?

And was MJK's real name completely different to her birth name?

Were Eddowes and Kelly connected through family?

Why did Eddowes use the name the night she died which matched the name of the killer's next victim?


Surely that's too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence?


Thoughts on my rather radical hypothesis please?