Kidney time.

[The Rookie Detective]

So just a little observation regarding Catherine Eddowes...

As we know, based on the evidence it is suggested that Catherine Eddowes was suffering from advanced Brights Disease.

Ive been wondering how relevent this is in terms of the events that transpired in Mitre Square.

One of the main symptoms of Brights Disease is high blood pressure.
Could having high blood pressure have meant that Eddowes bled out quicker than normal and perhaps gave the killer an extra minute he needed to evade capture?

From the evidence and witness statements, it would only seem possible for the ripper to have arrived undetected, strangled, heavily mutilated and then escaped undetected in under 5 minutes.

And so could her Brights disease have meant she succumbed quicker due to some of the symptoms involved with her condition?

I know that blood pressure makes no difference if the victim is deceased, but I've also believed he strangled his victims enough to make them unconscious and then began mutilating BEFORE they were life extinct.

On that basis Eddowes would have still had blood pressure but would have bled out quicker due to Brights Disease.
She is also likely to have had Dropsy in which her vital organs may have been enlarged.
Could that have also made a difference to the time the killer needed? I.e. saved him a minute?


The other observation regards the subsequent letter, From Hell, in which an alleged piece of Eddowes Kidney was sent.
It presented as though the part of the kidney that was sent did indeed have Brights Disease or similar.
But it's the other missing part that the killer states he ate and it was "nise."

BUT ....why would someone eat a kidney that was clearly presenting with some from of disease due to its colour change and size.

Therefore, the killer either...

DIdn't send the letter because it's a hoax
Sent ithe letter and kidney, but lied about eating it.
Sent the letter and kidney and did indeed eat his portion of the diseased kidney

If the last option is true then...and the author of letter ate Eddowes kidney, then is there also a chance that it poisoned him?

Could Eddowes kidney have made the killer poorly and became the reason why the killing appears to have stopped after MJK? (Like pro-canonical 5 believers suggest)

What if he made MJK his final swansong before he stopped killing, because Eddowes diseased kidney poisoned him after he ate it?


Just a few thoughts

[Wickerman]

So just a little observation regarding Catherine Eddowes...

As we know, based on the evidence it is suggested that Catherine Eddowes was suffering from advanced Brights Disease.

Ive been wondering how relevent this is in terms of the events that transpired in Mitre Square.

One of the main symptoms of Brights Disease is high blood pressure.
Could having high blood pressure have meant that Eddowes bled out quicker than normal and perhaps gave the killer an extra minute he needed to evade capture?

She died instantaneous anyway, according to Dr Brown, due to the severed throat.

If the last option is true then...and the author of letter ate Eddowes kidney, then is there also a chance that it poisoned him?

How so?
Brights disease isn't toxic in itself.

[The Rookie Detective]

How so?
Brights disease isn't toxic in itself.

Thank you for clarifying that; I had no idea whether consuming a diseased kidney would have been toxic.

Regardless of the result of consuming the kidney, I do find it peculiar how the author of the letter states they ate the kidney when in reality anyone with common sense could have seen it was diseased.

It questions the authenticity of the letter

[Wickerman]

Thank you for clarifying that; I had no idea whether consuming a diseased kidney would have been toxic.

Regardless of the result of consuming the kidney, I do find it peculiar how the author of the letter states they ate the kidney when in reality anyone with common sense could have seen it was diseased.

It questions the authenticity of the letter

I take the remark about eating the kidney as thrown in for shock value, but even if he did, the general lack of sanitary conditions - dirty hands, dirty plates, if he was from the area he was likely immune to anything he might pick up. Whereas, if we were to take a meal in the 19th century East End it would likely put us in hospital for a week.
So, anyway, the writer only wrote that line for shock value, I'm not convinced it was the killer, I know it could have been, and of all the letters it is the favourite of those who think he wrote any letters.
The letters, for me, are only a distraction.

[Michael W Richards]

The kidney section and letter to Lusk are almost assuredly from Kates killer, the idea that this was hoaxed stretches the bound of credulity and reason. So taking that into account, we may have some very pertinent information there. Why send this to Lusk? Was the surrendering the knife comment an indicator that he had actions pre planned, like a number of victims he wanted to kill, or even specific ones?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Mr Crawford the city solicitor at Catherine's inquest asked - I understand that you found certain portions of the body removed? With the reply from Dr Brown - Yes. The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found.

This was reported in the Daily Telegraph [ as on this site ], and I am assuming other papers as well on Oct 5 .

George Lusk received the kidney on Oct 15. I am not saying it was definitely a hoax, but looking at the dates and what was reported the chance must be there

Regards Darryl

[Michael W Richards]

Mr Crawford the city solicitor at Catherine's inquest asked - I understand that you found certain portions of the body removed? With the reply from Dr Brown - Yes. The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found.

This was reported in the Daily Telegraph [ as on this site ], and I am assuming other papers as well on Oct 5 .

George Lusk received the kidney on Oct 15. I am not saying it was definitely a hoax, but looking at the dates and what was reported the chance must be there

Regards Darryl

I believe the section was estimated to have been in spirits since it was removed from its source, and within 3 weeks prior to its mailing. Which fits neatly with it being Kates. Openshaw felt it was a human specimen.

2 relevant press clippings on this, first the Evening News;


"SIR-If not encroaching too much on your valuable space, I would beg to offer a few suggestions with regard to tracing the origin of the revolting package stated to have been received by Parcels Post to Mr. Lusk, of Mile End. It may not be generally known, but if the box in question was sent by Parcels Post (unless it was posted out of course, i.e., placed in a pillar or other posting box), it must have been handed in at a post-office by some one, and the printed label of that office would be affixed thereto. The necessary postage in stamps would most probably be attached by the sender, it being against the regulations for the postmaster to do it himself. Doubtless if application were made to the secretary of the General Post Office, he would furnish the police authorities with the time of handling in which, with the other points before-mentioned, might assist them in clearing up the matter. - I am, &c.,

PARCEL POST.
October 20."


And, from the Star...

"It at once occurred to the Vigilance Committee that at the inquest on the body of the woman Eddowes who was murdered at Mitre-square, Aldgate, it was stated that the left kidney was missing, and in view of this circumstance it was deemed advisable to at once communicate with the police. Accordingly the parcel and the accompanying letter and postcard were at once taken to Leman-street Police-station, and the matter placed in the hands of Inspector Abberline. Subsequently the City police were communicated with, as the discovery relates to a crime occurring within their jurisdiction. The cardboard box which Mr. Lusk received is about 3½in. square, and was wrapped in paper. The cover bears a London post-mark, but the stamping is not sufficiently clear to enable it to be stated from what postal district of the metropolis the article was sent. On this point it is expected that the assistance of the Post Office officials will be invoked. The portion of the kidney which it enclosed has, according to the medical experts, been preserved for some time in spirits of wine."

I wonder since the markings on it didnt definitively identify which postal district in London it was sent from, where that box ended up. And I also wonder why Lusk didnt tell anyone at first.

[Wickerman]

... And I also wonder why Lusk didnt tell anyone at first.

Apparently he did, he received the box on the evening of the 16th, he brought it to the Vigilance Cmte meeting the next evening (17th).
The next day (18th), four members of the Cmte went to Lusk's house to investigate the parcel, it was then taken to Dr Wiles, then to Dr Openshaw at the London Hospital. The Cmte then took it to the Met. police, who in turn contacted the City police, all on the same day.
The press eventually learned about this in time to spell out the sequence of events in the evening paper of the 19th.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881019.html

At what point do you think Lusk "didn't tell anyone"?

[Michael W Richards]

Apparently he did, he received the box on the evening of the 16th, he brought it to the Vigilance Cmte meeting the next evening (17th).
The next day (18th), four members of the Cmte went to Lusk's house to investigate the parcel, it was then taken to Dr Wiles, then to Dr Openshaw at the London Hospital. The Cmte then took it to the Met. police, who in turn contacted the City police, all on the same day.
The press eventually learned about this in time to spell out the sequence of events in the evening paper of the 19th.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881019.html

At what point do you think Lusk "didn't tell anyone"?

Isnt that clear from what you just posted? Couldnt he have notified police on the 16th? Or told someone about it? He didnt do that, he waited 24 hours to tell anyone.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Isnt that clear from what you just posted? Couldnt he have notified police on the 16th? Or told someone about it? He didnt do that, he waited 24 hours to tell anyone.

Hi Michael , I believe at first he himself believed it a hoax but he thought, " Just in case " so to speak and brought it up at the committee meeting the following evening [ 17th ], with the words, " I will suppose you will laugh at what I am going to tell you " . I am assuming here this was the first point said committee could meet after George Lusk received the Kidney on the evening of the 16th .
Seems like he was far from convinced that it was genuine and should be brought to the police as vital evidence straight away . And more likely that he wanted a second opinion first.
Regards Darryl

[Newbie]

So just a little observation regarding Catherine Eddowes...

As we know, based on the evidence it is suggested that Catherine Eddowes was suffering from advanced Brights Disease.

Ive been wondering how relevent this is in terms of the events that transpired in Mitre Square.

One of the main symptoms of Brights Disease is high blood pressure.
Could having high blood pressure have meant that Eddowes bled out quicker than normal and perhaps gave the killer an extra minute he needed to evade capture?

From the evidence and witness statements, it would only seem possible for the ripper to have arrived undetected, strangled, heavily mutilated and then escaped undetected in under 5 minutes.

And so could her Brights disease have meant she succumbed quicker due to some of the symptoms involved with her condition?

I know that blood pressure makes no difference if the victim is deceased, but I've also believed he strangled his victims enough to make them unconscious and then began mutilating BEFORE they were life extinct.

On that basis Eddowes would have still had blood pressure but would have bled out quicker due to Brights Disease.
She is also likely to have had Dropsy in which her vital organs may have been enlarged.
Could that have also made a difference to the time the killer needed? I.e. saved him a minute?


The other observation regards the subsequent letter, From Hell, in which an alleged piece of Eddowes Kidney was sent.
It presented as though the part of the kidney that was sent did indeed have Brights Disease or similar.
But it's the other missing part that the killer states he ate and it was "nise."

BUT ....why would someone eat a kidney that was clearly presenting with some from of disease due to its colour change and size.

Therefore, the killer either...

DIdn't send the letter because it's a hoax
Sent ithe letter and kidney, but lied about eating it.
Sent the letter and kidney and did indeed eat his portion of the diseased kidney

If the last option is true then...and the author of letter ate Eddowes kidney, then is there also a chance that it poisoned him?

Could Eddowes kidney have made the killer poorly and became the reason why the killing appears to have stopped after MJK? (Like pro-canonical 5 believers suggest)

What if he made MJK his final swansong before he stopped killing, because Eddowes diseased kidney poisoned him after he ate it?


Just a few thoughts

High blood pressure means it's more difficult to pump blood through the arteries ...... the heart has to work more, supplying more force to get the blood to circulate.

Since the heart stopped in this case, i would think, if anything, she bled out slower.

Bright's disease is acute or chronic nephritis, which is the inflammation of nephrons in the kidney: making it more difficult to remove particles in the blood, such as toxins, phosphorous, etc.

I doubt eating part of a kidney with Bright's disease would lead to dangerous toxicity levels in the individual.

[The Rookie Detective]

High blood pressure means it's more difficult to pump blood through the arteries ...... the heart has to work more, supplying more force to get the blood to circulate.

Since the heart stopped in this case, i would think, if anything, she bled out slower.

Bright's disease is acute or chronic nephritis, which is the inflammation of nephrons in the kidney: making it more difficult to remove particles in the blood, such as toxins, phosphorous, etc.

I doubt eating part of a kidney with Bright's disease would lead to dangerous toxicity levels in the individual.

Thank you for clarifying that Newbie

So essentially it's the complete opposite to what I'd imagined and so by being intoxicated/having high blood pressure/having Brights Disease/being initially strangled would mean that she bled out slower (opposed to faster)

That may explain why bleed out times are hard to be precise about.when it comes to the likes of Eddowes, Nichols and McKenzie

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael , I believe at first he himself believed it a hoax but he thought, " Just in case " so to speak and brought it up at the committee meeting the following evening [ 17th ], with the words, " I will suppose you will laugh at what I am going to tell you " . I am assuming here this was the first point said committee could meet after George Lusk received the Kidney on the evening of the 16th .
Seems like he was far from convinced that it was genuine and should be brought to the police as vital evidence straight away . And more likely that he wanted a second opinion first.
Regards Darryl

I think one reason might be fear Darryl. This was after all addressed to him, not the press and not the police. And he had received a threatening note just days before. Its one reason that I think it might be a real correspondence, he was the neighbourhood watch head in Whitechapel and his name was on posters put up around the area seeking information. Who better to scare?

We also have this...."A statement which apparently gives a clue to the sender of the strange package received by Mr. Lusk was made last night by Miss Emily Marsh, whose father carries on business in the leather trade at 218, Jubilee-street, Mile-end-road. In Mr. Marsh's absence Miss Marsh was in the front shop, shortly after one o'clock on Monday last, when a stranger, dressed in clerical costume, entered, and, referring to the reward bill in the window, asked for the address of Mr. Lusk, described therein as the president of the Vigilance Committee. Miss Marsh at once referred the man to Mr. J. Aarons, the treasurer of the committee, who resides at the corner of Jubilee-street and Mile-end-road, a distance of about thirty yards. The man, however, said he did not wish to go there, and Miss Marsh thereupon produced a newspaper in which Mr. Lusk's address was given as Alderney-road, Globe-road, no number being mentioned. She requested the stranger to read the address, but he declined, saying, "Read it out," and proceeded to write something in his pocket-book, keeping his head down meanwhile."

Also the description of the man is interesting; "The stranger is described as a man of some forty-five years of age, fully six feet in height, and slimly built. He wore a soft felt black hat, drawn over his forehead, a stand-up collar, and a very long black single-breasted overcoat, with a Prussian or clerical collar partly turned up. His face was of a sallow type, and he had a dark beard and moustache. The man spoke with what was taken to be an Irish accent."

Many feel that the author of the note may have been Irish.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

The kidney section and letter to Lusk are almost assuredly from Kates killer, the idea that this was hoaxed stretches the bound of credulity and reason.

I wholeheartedly agree. Didn't Dr. Openshaw state that the renal artery (which is 3 inches long), was severed, and that two inches remained in Eddowes body, and the other inch was to be found in the kidney sent to Lusk? If true, the odds are enormously against this being a hoax perpetrated by bored medical students.

So taking that into account, we may have some very pertinent information there. Why send this to Lusk?


Perhaps Jack knew him...? Lusk did business in the East End and may well have done something to raise the ire of the Ripper. I surmise that the increased civilian patrols by the Vigilance Committee were cramping Jack's style, and he resented Lusk for his interference. But this is just speculation.

Was the surrendering the knife comment an indicator that he had actions pre planned, like a number of victims he wanted to kill, or even specific ones?

I think it may have been an intimidation tactic on the part of the Ripper to frighten Lusk. Somewhat along the lines of, "I got something for your ass!"

The handwriting is chilling, and when I have worked in behavioral health units in hospitals, I have seen handwriting like that from schizophrenics. At this point, I speculate that Jack was spiraling and would reach his nadir (or zenith) with Mary Jane Kelly.

[Mark J D]

The handwriting is chilling, and when I have worked in behavioral health units in hospitals, I have seen handwriting like that from schizophrenics.

Really? Why didn't the examples look and read like these?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/brainspotting/202202/schizophrenia-and-writing

M.