Organ removal ? Warning Graphic Photos

[Herlock Sholmes]

“[Coroner] Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.
[Coroner] Would such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by some one accustomed to cutting up animals? - Yes.”

[mpriestnall]

Hi George,

There is something wrong.

Either Trevor is correct in his assessment, and I don't have an opinion on that as I haven't read much about it, or there is something going on beyond adding/deducting one to two minutes from everyone's time in a manner which unobjectively arrives at a minimum time of 6 minutes or whatever. Clearly, in the event we're going to bend the times then it is feasible that PC Watkins discovered Catherine's body at 1.41am and that includes his watch being fast by only 1 minute.

'Pure speculation, but I have often wondered whether or not the couple seen by Lawende and associates were look-outs for the WM. Couples were seen close to the crime scene at about the right time at the Catherine, Liz and Mary crime scenes and a witness heard a gasp followed by whispering at the Polly crime scene. It's a long shot, but there is something odd going on with these murders.

I may be misremembering but I believe Simon Wood made a similar suggestion on CB some time ago. Believe he suggested they were watching out on behalf of the police or Special Branch.

Agree that "something odd going on with these murders". I believe "Kelly" is the key to the motive for the murders. I believe
it's possible the earlier murders where some kind of preparation for Kelly's relocation rather than her supposed murder.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Could you remove a uterus and a kidney in the dark from a blood filled abdomen in double quick time? Would you even no where to look for the organs? I would suggest not, so the slash and cut theory is dead and buried

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

No, not at all. I doubt many could, which is why I described the doctors response as contradictory. They themselves say no medical skill, but don't appear to refute that the killer took the organs, going from the extract that George posted. Honestly, I'm not pouring scorn on your theory, I've already said twice that I agree that the language used at the time leaves room for interpretation.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I may be misremembering but I believe Simon Wood has made the same suggestion on CB some time ago. Or suggested they were watching out
on behalf of the police or Special Branch. Don't believe it myself though.

There is an obvious problem in that PC Harvey walked down Church Passage at 1.40am. He didn't mention a couple at the corner of the passage. It was more just thinking aloud on my part really.

I have no idea what the answer is, but there is something badly wrong with all of this that can't be explained away by the evidence nor unobjective bending the times in one direction.

I think whichever conclusion you arrive at, it's going to involve obstacles that can't easily be explained away.

The simplest solution to me is that the couple at the corner of Church Passage and Duke Street were not Catherine and the WM, they were already in the square. PC Harvey went to the end of the passage but didn't take a great deal of notice of the square because that was Watkins' beat. Lawende identified Catherine by her clothes and so there is room for doubt there. This is not without problems, however, e.g. the doctors were confident the TOD was 1.40am at the earliest.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whilst in Mitre Square, Dr. Brown sent for Doctor Phillips to view the body because of his connection to the other victim. Phillips viewed the body at the mortuary.

The quotes below were posted by Cris Malone over on JTRForums although they have probably been posted elsewhere.

“At some time between 4 and 5 a.m. Phillips (at the Leman St. Station) is visited by Constable Alfred Long and the duty inspector for the Commercial St. Station. The inspector hands Phillips a piece of apron found in a passageway in Goulston St. by P.C. Long and believed to be connected to the murder in Mitre Square.

Home Office report of PC 254A, Alfred Long, Nov. 6, 1888; A49301C/Sc.”

“Phillips arrives at the Golden Lane Mortuary some time after 5:20 a.m. He hands the apron piece over to Dr. Brown, who places it with the piece found on the body of the Mitre Square victim.

Lloyd’s Weekly, Sept. 30, 1888. Written inquest testimony of Dr. Brown, filed in the Corporation of London Records Office.”

“Phillips assist in the preliminary examination of the body (later determined to be that of Catherine Eddowes) which was underway when he arrived.

London Times, Oct. 1, 1888”

I’m unsure what time the body arrived at the mortuary from Mitre Square so I’m just taking a guess at around 2.30-3.00 but I’d appreciate it if anyone knows the exact time? We know from the above that when Dr. Phillips arrived at 5.20 a preliminary examination was already underway in which he now took part. So I’ll estimate (the time is not particularly important) that this preliminary examination began at around 5.00. So we have to ask ourselves what was the likelihood of, within the space of around 2 hours or so, someone heard about the murder and the extent of the mutilations (to allow easy access to the organs as Trevor has suggested would have been the deciding factor in organ stealing) discovered which mortuary she was sent to, and sneaked in, avoiding Doctors and mortuary attendants, to steal the body parts? I’d say pretty much non-existent.

Also, are we suggesting that this preliminary examination wouldn’t have including checking that any organs might have been removed? Phillips was there after all solely because of his dealings with the previous murders and he knew that organs had been removed from Chapman. So surely they would have checked and seen that organs were missing. I’m not claiming expertise on Post Mortem’s or preliminary examinations buy why would Brown have wanted Phillips there if they weren’t going to see if organs were missing? It wouldn’t have been difficult to have checked after all.

“The physicians later depart the Golden Lane Mortuary with the understanding that the post-mortem would be held at 2:30 p.m. that day. Due to urgency, Brown decides not to wait for the official request for a post-mortem by the City coroner, Samuel Langham.

Written inquest testimony of Dr. Brown, filed in the Corporation of London Records Office. “

.
“At 2:30, that afternoon, the post-mortem examination is held on the body of the Mitre Square victim. Present are Drs. F. Gordon Brown, Bagster Phillips, G. W. Sequeira and William S. Saunders, public analyst for the City of London. The London Times reports that Dr. Mackellar, chief surgeon for the Metropolitan Police was also in attendance. The inquest would last for four hours.

Written inquest testimony of Drs Brown,Sequeira and Saunders filed in the Corporation of London Records Office. Daily News, Oct. 1, 1888.”

I don’t know how long a preliminary examination would have taken but let’s say that it was done and dusted by 6.00. We then have the Post Mortem at 2.30. So even if the Doctors had missed the missing body parts at the preliminary examination, which I find unlikely in the extreme, we are left with a gap of opportunity of first around 2 hours as an unlikely period for stealing body parts (for the reasons quoted above) or a gap of around 8½ hours during the daytime. We’re there other PM’s scheduled for that day? Weren’t there mortuary attendants around? Who knows but would someone have risked this? Would a mortuary worker have risked stealing body parts if the Doctors had seen that they were still in place during the preliminary examination?


All seems a bit unlikely to say the least doesn’t it?

[Trevor Marriott]

Whilst in Mitre Square, Dr. Brown sent for Doctor Phillips to view the body because of his connection to the other victim. Phillips viewed the body at the mortuary.

The quotes below were posted by Cris Malone over on JTRForums although they have probably been posted elsewhere.


I’m unsure what time the body arrived at the mortuary from Mitre Square so I’m just taking a guess at around 2.30-3.00 but I’d appreciate it if anyone knows the exact time? We know from the above that when Dr. Phillips arrived at 5.20 a preliminary examination was already underway in which he now took part. So I’ll estimate (the time is not particularly important) that this preliminary examination began at around 5.00. So we have to ask ourselves what was the likelihood of, within the space of around 2 hours or so, someone heard about the murder and the extent of the mutilations (to allow easy access to the organs as Trevor has suggested would have been the deciding factor in organ stealing) discovered which mortuary she was sent to, and sneaked in, avoiding Doctors and mortuary attendants, to steal the body parts? I’d say pretty much non-existent.

Also, are we suggesting that this preliminary examination wouldn’t have including checking that any organs might have been removed? Phillips was there after all solely because of his dealings with the previous murders and he knew that organs had been removed from Chapman. So surely they would have checked and seen that organs were missing. I’m not claiming expertise on Post Mortem’s or preliminary examinations buy why would Brown have wanted Phillips there if they weren’t going to see if organs were missing? It wouldn’t have been difficult to have checked after all.

I don’t know how long a preliminary examination would have taken but let’s say that it was done and dusted by 6.00. We then have the Post Mortem at 2.30. So even if the Doctors had missed the missing body parts at the preliminary examination, which I find unlikely in the extreme, we are left with a gap of opportunity of first around 2 hours as an unlikely period for stealing body parts (for the reasons quoted above) or a gap of around 8½ hours during the daytime. We’re there other PM’s scheduled for that day? Weren’t there mortuary attendants around? Who knows but would someone have risked this? Would a mortuary worker have risked stealing body parts if the Doctors had seen that they were still in place during the preliminary examination?


All seems a bit unlikely to say the least doesn’t it?

the body arrived at the mortuary at 3.15 am and was then stripped. The Goulston Street apron piece was at that time in the hands of Dr Phillips who was at Leman Street Police Station and after receiving it, later on, took it to the mortuary for it to be matched with the mortuary piece, but he did not arrive at the mortuary till after 5.20 am
There is no evidence from Dr Brown to show any form of preliminary post mortem examination took place in his official inquest testimony, the only thing he mentions is being present when the clothes were taken off the body and why would they at that time if they had have done it would have been recorded and they would only have been duplicating the procedure later in the day

If they left the mortuary at 6am and didnt return till 2pm that by my timing is 8 hours long enough for organs to be taken.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

the body arrived at the mortuary at 3.15 am and was then stripped. The Goulston Street apron piece was at that time in the hands of Dr Phillips who was at Leman Street Police Station and after receiving it, later on, took it to the mortuary for it to be matched with the mortuary piece, but he did not arrive at the mortuary till after 5.20 am
There is no evidence from Dr Brown to show any form of preliminary post mortem examination took place in his official inquest testimony, the only thing he mentions is being present when the clothes were taken off the body and why would they at that time if they had have done it would have been recorded and they would only have been duplicating the procedure later in the day

If they left the mortuary at 6am and didnt return till 2pm that by my timing is 8 hours long enough for organs to be taken.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So these are inventions? Why would Brown need to mention any preliminary examination at the inquest? Why ask such a pointless question? All that the inquest was concerned with were the results of the PM.

“Phillips assist in the preliminary examination of the body (later determined to be that of Catherine Eddowes) which was underway when he arrived.

London Times, Oct. 1, 1888”

“Phillips assist in the preliminary examination of the body (later determined to be that of Catherine Eddowes) which was underway when he arrived.

London Times, Oct. 1, 1888”

Then we have…

“The physicians later depart the Golden Lane Mortuary with the understanding that the post-mortem would be held at 2:30 p.m. that day. Due to urgency, Brown decides not to wait for the official request for a post-mortem by the City coroner, Samuel Langham.

Written inquest testimony of Dr. Brown, filed in the Corporation of London Records Office. “

So the physicians were at the mortuary but left only to return for the actual PM. What were they doing there? Why did he called Dr Phillips to take part?

Your desperation is showing Trevor. None of the Doctors said at the PM “Hold on, where have her kidney and uterus gone? They were there earlier.” And we know why Trevor. Because the killer took them.

[Trevor Marriott]

So these are inventions? Why would Brown need to mention any preliminary examination at the inquest? Why ask such a pointless question? All that the inquest was concerned with were the results of the PM.

“Phillips assist in the preliminary examination of the body (later determined to be that of Catherine Eddowes) which was underway when he arrived.

London Times, Oct. 1, 1888”

“Phillips assist in the preliminary examination of the body (later determined to be that of Catherine Eddowes) which was underway when he arrived.

London Times, Oct. 1, 1888”

Then we have…

“The physicians later depart the Golden Lane Mortuary with the understanding that the post-mortem would be held at 2:30 p.m. that day. Due to urgency, Brown decides not to wait for the official request for a post-mortem by the City coroner, Samuel Langham.

Written inquest testimony of Dr. Brown, filed in the Corporation of London Records Office. “

So the physicians were at the mortuary but left only to return for the actual PM. What were they doing there? Why did he called Dr Phillips to take part?

Your desperation is showing Trevor. None of the Doctors said at the PM “Hold on, where have her kidney and uterus gone? They were there earlier.” And we know why Trevor. Because the killer took them.

No desparartion I am relying on the facts not like you making it up as you go along

There is no evidence of a preliminary examination of the body at the mortuary before the post mortem if that had have taken place it would have been recorded and used at the inquest.

Dr Brown "Before we removed the body Dr. Phillips was sent for, as I wished him to see the wounds, he having been engaged in a case of a similar kind previously. He saw the body at the mortuary. What time did he see attend the mortuary? he did not arrive at the mortuary till after 5.20 am with the GS apron piece

Dr Phillips did not take part in the post mortem he was not present when the body was stripped

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[mpriestnall]

There is an obvious problem in that PC Harvey walked down Church Passage at 1.40am. He didn't mention a couple at the corner of the passage. It was more just thinking aloud on my part really.

I have no idea what the answer is, but there is something badly wrong with all of this that can't be explained away by the evidence nor unobjective bending the times in one direction.

I think whichever conclusion you arrive at, it's going to involve obstacles that can't easily be explained away.

The simplest solution to me is that the couple at the corner of Church Passage and Duke Street were not Catherine and the WM, they were already in the square. PC Harvey went to the end of the passage but didn't take a great deal of notice of the square because that was Watkins' beat. Lawende identified Catherine by her clothes and so there is room for doubt there. This is not without problems, however, e.g. the doctors were confident the TOD was 1.40am at the earliest.

Thanks Fleetwood.

I'm more of a follower of these kind of discussions. I'm interested though in discussions like these because my candidate, though not medically qualified AFIAK, descended from a long line of surgeons.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No desparartion I am relying on the facts not like you making it up as you go along

There is no evidence of a preliminary examination of the body at the mortuary before the post mortem if that had have taken place it would have been recorded and used at the inquest.

Dr Brown "Before we removed the body Dr. Phillips was sent for, as I wished him to see the wounds, he having been engaged in a case of a similar kind previously. He saw the body at the mortuary. What time did he see attend the mortuary? he did not arrive at the mortuary till after 5.20 am with the GS apron piece

Dr Phillips did not take part in the post mortem he was not present when the body was stripped

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I have quoted where these have come from Trevor I haven’t invented them, so the newspapers must have made them up in an attempt to preemptively disparage any future theories by ex-police officers.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Dr Phillips did not take part in the post mortem he was not present when the body was stripped

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Agreed. He arrived as a preliminary examination was taking place which he joined in. A preliminary examination where the extent and nature of the injuries would have taken place. Where they would have noticed a missing kidney and uterus unless he specifically called Phillips in just to look at her facial injuries. Get real Trevor.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought I’d read something on this subject on an old thread on JTRForums also from Cris Malone. I just found it, from 2013. Trevor posted on it too, making the same old points that he’s making her but being disagreed with by a different group of people. This is the post from Cris…


An early experiment?

I ran across this article from the Oct. 6 edition of the East London Observer in the extensive press reports section at Casebook.

It is describing the drama at the Eddowes inquest on Thursday, Oct. 4th as the last witness, Dr. Gordon Brown, revealed to the court that the same organ (plus a kidney) that had been removed from Annie Chapman had also been excised from Catherine Eddowes. Although rumors and speculation had persisted since the day of the murder, this was the first time that an official confirmation had been made about this. The medicos and the police had been elusive on this bit of evidence up to this time.

What is particularly interesting is the line I've placed in bold. This is supposed to be from Gordon Brown himself, although this revelation can not be found in the official written testimony or anywhere else as far as I can determine. If true, it helps to explain why the medicos in this case may have reached their conclusions about the time it took for the murderer to commit the act.

I have included the majority of the relative piece in this article so the part in bold can be seen in perspective. The entire article can been found in the Casebook press reports, East London Observer, Saturday, Oct. 6, 1888.


“...Probably the murder was committed with a sharp-pointed blade at least six inches long, and the throat had been cut right through to the vertebral cartilages, just as was the case, it will be remembered, in the Hanbury-street murder. Dr. Brown said that he had removed the stomach, but had not as yet had time to examine it so as to determine whether any kind of drug had been administered. The left kidney, the witness went on to explain, had been removed in a particular manner. "Do you," said the City Solicitor, Mr. Crawford, "draw any conclusions from that?" and the answer evidently received the deepest attention. "I think that somebody who knew the position of the kidney and how to cut it out must have done it." It had been manifest for some little time that the City Solicitor in his cross examination of the witness had been leading up to what he knew would prove sensational, and the profoundest interest was displayed by all in court as the fact of the anatomical knowledge of the assassin became established by repeated answers of the surgical expert; and when at length in answer to explicit inquiry he stated that precisely the same organ - the uterus with its ligaments - as had been found missing in the case of Annie Chapman was also missing here, together with the left kidney, the sensation in court was profound. The possibility of this had, of course, been surmised, but all information on the results of the post-mortem examination had been steadily refused, and this announcement came as a startling confirmation of what had before been only suspected. In proof of the anatomical and surgical skill of the assassin, Dr. Brown added that for the purpose of practically testing the time required for what had been done to this unfortunate woman, an expert practitioner had actually performed this operation, and found that it took three minutes and a half. The witness was disposed to believe that the murderer had been hurried, and had probably done all he intended to do, or he would not have slashed and hacked the face about, which he had no doubt done merely for the sake of concealing the identity of the woman. "Would the parts removed be of any use for professional purposes?" asked Mr. Crawford. "Not the slightest," was the reply. "Would the knowledge necessary for these mutilations be likely to be possessed by one engaged in cutting up animals?" was another question put, and the answer was unhesitatingly, "Yes, sir."


It was followed by this comment by highly respected researcher Debra Arif:

“That's a very interesting find, Cris.

It would be an odd thing for the press to totally invent a statement like that without any basis in fact. It would shed a whole new light on why the timings for organ removal were accepted at the time, if true. Excellent.”

I agree. Why would the newspaper invent something like this? Certainly the press can make errors but something like this? You can’t mis-hear or mis-quote something as specific as this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I can’t find the actual quote but I seem to recall the late Nick Warren calling the killer a trophy taker who removed body parts at the scene. Nick Warren was a surgeon.

[Herlock Sholmes]

An interesting point by Monty (Neil Bell) over on JTRForums (same thread)

“In the case of Chapman, as Mann stated the Mortuary was locked, with only the 2 nurses permitted inside to strip the body, and that he then handed the keys of said locked mortuary to the Police for them to look after, wouldn't that draw doubt upon your theory?”

These mortuaries weren’t simply open sheds with ‘get your free body parts here’ signs.

[Joshua Rogan]

Dr Phillips did not take part in the post mortem

According to the Times 1 Oct he did;

The body was removed as soon as possible to the mortuary in Golden-lane, where it was examined in the presence of Dr. Brown and Dr. Sequeira. Dr. Phillips, of Spital-square, the surgeon of the H Division of Metropolitan Police, arrived shortly afterwards, and assisted in the preliminary examination of the body.

In the afternoon a post-mortem examination of the body was made by Dr. Brown, assisted by Dr. Sequeira, Dr. Phillips, and Dr. M'Kellar (the chief surgeon of the Metropolitan Police). Dr. Yarrow (H Division Metropolitan Police) and Dr. Sedgwick Saunders were also present at the examination."