Organ removal ? Warning Graphic Photos

[Abby Normal]

You are right the killer of Kelly did remove many organs but there was no anatomical knowledge shown in doing so, unlike Chapman and Eddowes where the doctors agreed that whoever had removed the organs must have had some anatomical knowledge, So if you dont mind I will stick rigidly to the belief that the killers motive for these murders was nothing more than murder and mutilation.

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he removed and took away the heart trevor, by going through the ribs at the scene of the murder as well as removing internal organs found on the table and in the room. repeat removed and TOOK AWAY THE HEART.

and as a former detective, you should know more than any that the history of post mortem mutilators show that they remove and many times take away body parts, for trophies and to relive their sick fantasies.

[Trevor Marriott]

But if we work on the premise that the killer was not organ harvesting but took organs from Chapman and Eddowes for his own gratification ,that being the excepted theory .

who has come up with that so called excepted theory?

So because he decided to leave Kellys organs behind for whatever the reason that it somehow means two different killers?

Well if the motive you and others suggest is true then it has to be asked why did he not take away any of Kellys organs when he could have taken all the organs?

Im sure if debated at lengh the possiblities and suggestions of such an act as to why he didnt take kellys organs would be many.

Well I would be enthralled to hear them

[Trevor Marriott]

your starting with a faulty premise as usual. the killer removed many internal organs from kelly, removed external parts and removed and took away her heart.

You are right the killer of Kelly did remove many organs but there was no anatomical knowledge shown in doing so, unlike Chapman and Eddowes where the doctors agreed that whoever had removed the organs must have had some anatomical knowledge, So if you dont mind I will stick rigidly to the belief that the killers motive for these murders was nothing more than murder and mutilation.

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[Abby Normal]

If you work on the premise that the killers motive for murder was to harvest organs then you to have to ask why did he not take away any organs from Kelly when he had the time and the opportunity to take away almost every organ.

If the killers motive was simply to murder and mutilate then that is what he achieved with all the victims, and he therfore did not remove organs at the crime scenes from Chapman and Eddowes

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your starting with a faulty premise as usual. the killer removed many internal organs from kelly, removed external parts and removed and took away her heart.

[DJA]

My head hurts.

[FISHY1118]

If you work on the premise that the killers motive for murder was to harvest organs then you to have to ask why did he not take away any organs from Kelly when he had the time and the opportunity to take away almost every organ.

If the killers motive was simply to murder and mutilate then that is what he achieved with all the victims, and he therfore did not remove organs at the crime scenes from Chapman and Eddowes

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But if we work on the premise that the killer was not organ harvesting but took organs from Chapman and Eddowes for his own gratification ,that being the excepted theory .

So because he decided to leave Kellys organs behind for whatever the reason that it somehow means two different killers?

Im sure if debated at lengh the possiblities and suggestions of such an act as to why he didnt take kellys organs would be many.

Like all things Ripper related that would come under the catagory of speculation ,conjecture, opinion and guesswork . Is it really enough tho just to say because he didnt take kellys organs that this somehow supports the organ havesting theory ?. Lets just say im not in favour of it for that reason for starters .

[Losmandris]

As we are dealing with some kind of homicidal maniac in some kind of frenzy anything i.e. when it comes to timings, locating the organs and removing them as well as no apparent fear of being discovered is possible. This kind of thing just cannot be replicated in any form of test. It is just pointless to even try.

[Joshua Rogan]

and what would the purpose of that be where was a story 12 hours later?

To entertain and inform their readers?
Read the whole story. Near the start it states that "The Star man started from the Bishopsgate Police-station soon after eight o'clock to make a comprehensive tour of the disturbed territory."

do you not think the press would not have been alerted to the murder soon after it was discovered, and would have wanted to have someone on the scene asap after all the Star had a reporter ensconed outside of the mortuary until 5.20am after the body was taken there

Lloyds had a representative at the mortuary at 05:20, but were earlier denied entry to the murder site itself, along with everyone else. Are you sure you're not confusing the two papers? Drs Brown and Sequeira even gave them an interview beforehand (published on Sunday) but it mentions nothing about the length of time the attack would have taken.

What you seem to be suggesting is that the Star reporter was on the spot in Mitre Square at the exact time that the murder was perpetrated.

[Trevor Marriott]

And since there is no evidence at all that the interview took place before the PM, this is, by your own argument, unsafe to rely on. So kindly stop repeating it and nauseum.

Once again, you have the day wrong. The reporter was in the square 24 hours after the murder, in the early hours of Monday morning.

and what would the purpose of that be where was a story 12 hours later? do you not think the press would not have been alerted to the murder soon after it was discovered, and would have wanted to have someone on the scene asap after all the Star had a reporter ensconed outside of the mortuary until 5.20am after the body was taken there

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[Joshua Rogan]

Doesnt matter when it was published, it was a matter as to when the doctors were interviewed

And since there is no evidence at all that the interview took place before the PM, this is, by your own argument, unsafe to rely on. So kindly stop repeating it and nauseum.

This from the Star newsaper confirms that a Star Reporter was at the Eddowes crime scene before the body was moved to the mortuary

"If the Star man had been in search of gore instead of news he need not have feared molestation as he went on to Duke-street. There was not even a policeman in sight, notwithstanding the extra force. When he had turned down through Church-passage into the square, however, he found four. He recalled the old proverb about locking the barn after the horse had been stolen. Certainly the red-hand would get a warm grip if it was stretched out there again this morning. It was now just five-and-twenty minutes of two. There were six people in the square all told, but no one was making any noise. Presently footsteps were heard coming along the narrow passage leading from the other square, and when the newcomers appeared, their blue jackets and white aprons discovered their calling at once, and one could not escape thought that here was evidence that were no strangers to Mitre Square

Once again, you have the day wrong. The reporter was in the square 24 hours after the murder, in the early hours of Monday morning.

[Trevor Marriott]

And once again, this is not a fact. This is just your supposition based upon your mistaken belief that the Star article was published on the same day as the PM took place, when in fact it was published the day after.

Doesnt matter when it was published, it was a matter as to when the doctors were interviewed besides I have outlined the potential flaws in the timings

This from the Star newsaper confirms that a Star Reporter was at the Eddowes crime scene before the body was moved to the mortuary

"If the Star man had been in search of gore instead of news he need not have feared molestation as he went on to Duke-street. There was not even a policeman in sight, notwithstanding the extra force. When he had turned down through Church-passage into the square, however, he found four. He recalled the old proverb about locking the barn after the horse had been stolen. Certainly the red-hand would get a warm grip if it was stretched out there again this morning. It was now just five-and-twenty minutes of two. There were six people in the square all told, but no one was making any noise. Presently footsteps were heard coming along the narrow passage leading from the other square, and when the newcomers appeared, their blue jackets and white aprons discovered their calling at once, and one could not escape thought that here was evidence that were no strangers to Mitre Square

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[Joshua Rogan]

And one again for the last time so please listen. Brown and Sequeira gave the 5 mins and 3 mins estimates before the post mortems were carried out and those times they gave relate solely to the murder and mutilations.

And once again, this is not a fact. This is just your supposition based upon your mistaken belief that the Star article was published on the same day as the PM took place, when in fact it was published the day after.

[Trevor Marriott]

The theory that you want to 'put to bed' with your usual overconfidence is the theory that the vast majority believe because it's the one supported by the facts. All that you're doing is looking at those that have been asked and then cherry picking the ones that you like.

I'll ask you again Trevor - time and again on here you quote Dr. Biggs as your 'go to' man on medical issues. Why is it that when he says that he has no issue with Dr Brown's assessment you airbrush him from the thread?

As Kjab has said, this wasn't a surgeon following strict rules of method. He wasn't concerned about Eddowes. This was a maniac with a knife. He slashed open the abdomen and hacked out 2 chunks of meat. He'd have had ample time.

The mortuary theory was in tatters years ago Trevor and it remains in tatters but you will continue with it of course.

Let's put this mortuary theory to bed once and for all.

And one again for the last time so please listen. Brown and Sequeira gave the 5 mins and 3 mins estimates before the post mortems were carried out and those times they gave relate solely to the murder and mutilations.

The 5 mins that you and others seem to want to accept for the killer to have committed the murder and removed the organs cannot be verified as being accurate because that time has been calculated with a 1.35am start time which cannot be proven because there is no evidence to show the killer and Eddowes went into the square at that time it could have been as late as 1.38 so even you must accept that the later they moved off the less time the killer had with the victim. So on that basis it is quite right for me to question whether or not the killer had the time with Eddowes to do all that he is purported to have done. Whether or not you agree is immaterial to me. I am simply highlighting the possible flaws in the suggestion that the killer could have done all that he is purported to have done within the time frame suggested

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[Joshua Rogan]

My opinion at present is either we should look for a Ripper with surgical or dissection skills, or a skilled butcher, or if not, then the organ removals were done after the fact. The fact that the abdominal cut went around the naval persuades me to lean slightly towards the former.

Which direction do you lean given that in Chapman's case, the piece of skin containing her navel was entirely removed, presumably taken by the killer?

[Varqm]

Perhaps the NHS should start employing butchers to perform hysterectomies and kidney removals to ease their backlog

I have consulted a master butcher who states he coud not accomplish it and cites a number of reasons the full account can be found in my book "Jack the Ripper The Real Truth as can a full medical anaylsis of all the murders by a team of modern day medical experts here is an extract

I would probably be able to facilitate the removal of the organs but I would need there to be sufficient light and it would need to be a controlled situation and time would be needed to complete the removal. In removing a uterus from a human body I would not need to take out the intestines, as I know the uterus sits in the lower abdomen. I would not be able to use a six-inch bladed knife to remove a kidney.

I have also been asked whether I could carefully remove these same organs in almost total darkness using a six-inch sharp-bladed knife. If I were to attempt these removals from a human body in almost total darkness I would encounter many problems. The first would be the need for a big enough incision for me to be able to gain access to the stomach. The second would be trying to locate the organs, which would be wet and slippery and covered with blood from the abdomen.
This in itself would cause great difficulty in gripping them sufficiently to be able to remove them carefully. I would also not want to be working with a sharp knife in an abdomen not being able to see what I was doing or where my fingers were with where I was attempting to cut. I would also say that I would find it difficult to work with a long-bladed knife and could not remove a kidney using a six-inch bladed knife. If I were in a hurry to remove a kidney and were able to find the renal fat, which encases the kidney, then I would be able to grip it and rip it out by hand.

Lets put this butcher theory to bed once and for all !!!!!!!!!

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Again there were doctors in 1888 who said it could be done,they have no problem with it.Two inquests,Eddowes and Chapman,worldwide news,no complains.There is nothing also that said organs were being stolen in the two mortuaries the above victims were put it in.
You have to do better than ask one butcher. How about slaughterers? How about butchers and slaughterers with some human anatomical knowledge.And somebody with no cares about what parts of the body he would hit.And somebody who is single- minded about extracting 2 organs.