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Organ removal ? Warning Graphic Photos
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It looks like you can download the book as a pdf here I think.
Elizabeth T. Hurren’s Dying for Victorian Medicine is an attempt at recovering lost stories—the stories of the poor whose bodies were sold for dissection and almost discarded at the end of the anat...
Theres also an article from her in History Extra which I saw yesterday. I’m sure that the whole article was there but I’ve just clicked on it again and you need to subscribe to get the whole thing.Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
The quote from Prosector is intersting and I refer to the last line
"To me and to other surgeons that I have discussed it with like Professor Harold Ellis, it is absolutely staggering that he did what he did to Chapman and Eddowes in such a short time - or at all.
By that comment I take that to suggest that the killer did not remove the organs at the crime scene !
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
A point on the book you mention, British medical research post WW2, it seems to me Professor Hurren is talking of sanctioned medical research, i.e. more than a few criminals running 'round removing organs and selling them to some back street operation, and you'd have to assume that sanctioned medical research means right to the very top of medicine. 'Something to consider in relation to your mortuary theory, perhaps.
That being the case, who would have sanctioned it in Whitechapel in 1888? I know you can't possibly just pull a name out of thin air, I'm just thinking out loud that in the event you're correct, then for the book you mention to have relevance somebody within British medicine sanctioned organ harvesting in 1888.
In terms of the journal, I can't access the link.
Can you post the extract where Professor Hurren has evidence of organs being removed at a mortuary, please, or anywhere else for that matter.
I ask this because in her article specifically on East London in 1888 and the illegal trade in bodies, this article Dissecting Jack-the-Ripper : An Anatomy of Murder in the Metropolis (openedition.org), there is no mention of organs being removed at a mortuary. Professor Hurren has primary source evidence for much of the illegal body trade, including limbs being dissected at a mortuary; and one conclusion is that organ removal wasn't included in that evidence because she didn't have any and nor does anyone else.
I'm not saying that evidence isn't there, but I don't think it's been put forward on this thread.
It would be interesting to see it and read it.
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
At the risk of opening another can of worms which might force herlock into meltdown she mentions brains that might explain why the torsos were all found minus their heads bearing in mind I dont believe they were the victim of a killer.
www.trevormarriott.co.ukRegards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View PostIt looks like you can download the book as a pdf here I think.
Elizabeth T. Hurren’s Dying for Victorian Medicine is an attempt at recovering lost stories—the stories of the poor whose bodies were sold for dissection and almost discarded at the end of the anat...
Theres also an article from her in History Extra which I saw yesterday. I’m sure that the whole article was there but I’ve just clicked on it again and you need to subscribe to get the whole thing.
Regards
Sir Herlock Sholmes.
“A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I suggest you read one of Professor Hurrens books on the activites of body and organ dealers in Whitechapel in 1888 there you will find many examples of corrupt mortuary attendants and the illict trade in bodies and organs from mortuaries.
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
As such there is no basis for this theory in regards to the JTR murders,and it was because what happened was simple and true,JTR took the organs including the heart in MJK's case.Last edited by Varqm; 09-24-2022, 12:32 PM.Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
M. Pacana
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Nope. Take a deep breath and take a seat Trevor. I agree with you on the Torso/Ripper issue. I can’t be certain about it of course but I don’t see them as connected although there’s a new book out on the subject at some point which might change my mind. I can’t see it though.
can you share the link for new book Herlock plz.
or info and i investigate google !
sorry but obviouslydible .
from outside in view it can be hilariously funny.
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Trevor,
Following the Anatomy Act of 1832 (Anonymous, 1832), body snatching from graves became unnecessary, as the dead bodies of all unclaimed poor from workhouses and charitable hospitals could legally undergo dissection. In fact, one of the principal reasons for introducing the Act was to prevent body snatching from graves. This practice continued throughout the century, and even in the late 19th century those running poor houses could sell corpses of their unclaimed inmates after death to teaching hospitals to recoup the expenses of poor relief in their parish (Hurren, 2007, p. 192). Other corpses were sold directly by desperately poor and grieving relatives to corpse dealers who worked in deprived areas of cities. Some corpses were sold on whole to the anatomy schools, but a higher price could be obtained by dividing up the body into its constituent parts to sell separately. Attitudes to the practice of dissection varied significantly between the rich and the poor. The wealthy who determined the law were happy for dissection to continue because scientific research was regarded as worthy at that time. Furthermore, it was not the rich who were dissected but the poor, either voluntarily when a corpse was sold by a desperately poor family, or against their wishes when death occurred in the workhouse or a charitable hospital and the body was unclaimed (Richardson, 2001, p. 221)
The study of anatomy in England from 1700 to the early 20th century - PMC (nih.gov)
In this context, I reckon organ removal at the mortuary was more likely to have been sanctioned by the medical authorities rather than being done by some small criminal syndicate.
It appears that it was deemed to be morally appropriate to dissect the bodies of the poor (unclaimed and sold), and sell their body parts, in the name of progress. You could argue that a 'fallen woman' on a mortuary slab isn't removed from the 'unclaimed poor'.
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
It cannot be ruled out that Kelly was killed by another and the murder made to look like the work of JTR. equally if it was the same killer who was responsible and his motive was simply murder and mutilation then that explains it. After all if it was the same killer and he was alleged to have taken organs from the previous victims he could have in the case of Kelly removed and took away almost every organ in her body but he didnt take any organ despite having the time to do so!
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Nope. Take a deep breath and take a seat Trevor. I agree with you on the Torso/Ripper issue. I can’t be certain about it of course but I don’t see them as connected although there’s a new book out on the subject at some point which might change my mind. I can’t see it though.
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Dissecting Jack-the-Ripper : An Anatomy of Murder in the Metropolis
by
Elizabeth Hurren
is available here:
Introduction In 1888, the true identity of Jack-the-Ripper confounded the Metropolitan Police of London and created a publishing sensation that has turned into a global industry of true-crime genre...
Just prepare yourself for part 5 that suggests MJK may have been a body dealer.
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by Harry D View Post
The odds of two serial killers overlapping like that in a small geographical area must be remarkable, and they both had a macabre taste for deconstructing women. Also, consider the fact that the murders went cold until 1889, then we had Elizabeth Jackson, Alice McKenzie, and the Pinchin St torso within a matter of months, only for both series to ostensibly end for good thereafter.
were dealing with post mortem mutilating serial killer/s here who covet body parts, not sell them.
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
amen brother. your last point is something ive banged on about forever..they both end at the same time. whats the chances of that?
were dealing with post mortem mutilating serial killer/s here who covet body parts, not sell them.
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