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Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac
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Medical research cannot be done simply on limbs whereas bodies could be obtained and lawfully it would have been easier simplt to remove organs and not take the body because a body woud need to be disposed of at an extra cost. so where would bodies have been disposed of without having to incur costs- now let me see oh yes The River Thames of which we have evidnce of that do we not
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She wrote this one about the period in question so Trevor might have this one. I can’t find a copy going for cheaper than £48 though.
Herlock Sholmes
”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”Comment
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It looks like you can download the book as a pdf here I think.
Theres also an article from her in History Extra which I saw yesterday. I’m sure that the whole article was there but I’ve just clicked on it again and you need to subscribe to get the whole thing.Herlock Sholmes
”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”Comment
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Thats not what it means Trevor. That’s what you’re inferring. He is just expressing his surprise that this was done in such a short time. Nowhere does he say that it couldn’t have been done. For a start he didn’t know how long the killer had available.Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Herlock Sholmes
”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”Comment
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Ok, so this is not the book.Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
It is a medical journal follow the link
A point on the book you mention, British medical research post WW2, it seems to me Professor Hurren is talking of sanctioned medical research, i.e. more than a few criminals running 'round removing organs and selling them to some back street operation, and you'd have to assume that sanctioned medical research means right to the very top of medicine. 'Something to consider in relation to your mortuary theory, perhaps.
That being the case, who would have sanctioned it in Whitechapel in 1888? I know you can't possibly just pull a name out of thin air, I'm just thinking out loud that in the event you're correct, then for the book you mention to have relevance somebody within British medicine sanctioned organ harvesting in 1888.
In terms of the journal, I can't access the link.
Can you post the extract where Professor Hurren has evidence of organs being removed at a mortuary, please, or anywhere else for that matter.
I ask this because in her article specifically on East London in 1888 and the illegal trade in bodies, this article Dissecting Jack-the-Ripper : An Anatomy of Murder in the Metropolis (openedition.org), there is no mention of organs being removed at a mortuary. Professor Hurren has primary source evidence for much of the illegal body trade, including limbs being dissected at a mortuary; and one conclusion is that organ removal wasn't included in that evidence because she didn't have any and nor does anyone else.
I'm not saying that evidence isn't there, but I don't think it's been put forward on this thread.
It would be interesting to see it and read it.Comment
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Nope. Take a deep breath and take a seat Trevor. I agree with you on the Torso/Ripper issue. I can’t be certain about it of course but I don’t see them as connected although there’s a new book out on the subject at some point which might change my mind. I can’t see it though.Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
At the risk of opening another can of worms which might force herlock into meltdown she mentions brains that might explain why the torsos were all found minus their heads bearing in mind I dont believe they were the victim of a killer.
www.trevormarriott.co.ukHerlock Sholmes
”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”Comment
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I should have known better really. It’s not the whole book. Only what appears on screen.Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View PostIt looks like you can download the book as a pdf here I think.
Theres also an article from her in History Extra which I saw yesterday. I’m sure that the whole article was there but I’ve just clicked on it again and you need to subscribe to get the whole thing.
Herlock Sholmes
”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”Comment
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Yes but how did that relate to ,in particular, Whitechapel, Golden Lane and Shoreditch mortuaries.If for example,there is an 1884 newspaper report or a complaint that organs were being taken from one of the 3 mortuaries above then one can conjecture it also might have happened in 1888,at least a basis or something.The illegal trade might not have occured in these mortuaries,at least in 1888.Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
As such there is no basis for this theory in regards to the JTR murders,and it was because what happened was simple and true,JTR took the organs including the heart in MJK's case.Last edited by Varqm; 09-24-2022, 12:32 PM.Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
M. PacanaComment
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hiOriginally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
can you share the link for new book Herlock plz.
or info and i investigate google !
sorry but obviouslydible .
from outside in view it can be hilariously funny.Comment
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Trevor,
Following the Anatomy Act of 1832 (Anonymous, 1832), body snatching from graves became unnecessary, as the dead bodies of all unclaimed poor from workhouses and charitable hospitals could legally undergo dissection. In fact, one of the principal reasons for introducing the Act was to prevent body snatching from graves. This practice continued throughout the century, and even in the late 19th century those running poor houses could sell corpses of their unclaimed inmates after death to teaching hospitals to recoup the expenses of poor relief in their parish (Hurren, 2007, p. 192). Other corpses were sold directly by desperately poor and grieving relatives to corpse dealers who worked in deprived areas of cities. Some corpses were sold on whole to the anatomy schools, but a higher price could be obtained by dividing up the body into its constituent parts to sell separately. Attitudes to the practice of dissection varied significantly between the rich and the poor. The wealthy who determined the law were happy for dissection to continue because scientific research was regarded as worthy at that time. Furthermore, it was not the rich who were dissected but the poor, either voluntarily when a corpse was sold by a desperately poor family, or against their wishes when death occurred in the workhouse or a charitable hospital and the body was unclaimed (Richardson, 2001, p. 221)
The study of anatomy in England from 1700 to the early 20th century - PMC (nih.gov)
In this context, I reckon organ removal at the mortuary was more likely to have been sanctioned by the medical authorities rather than being done by some small criminal syndicate.
It appears that it was deemed to be morally appropriate to dissect the bodies of the poor (unclaimed and sold), and sell their body parts, in the name of progress. You could argue that a 'fallen woman' on a mortuary slab isn't removed from the 'unclaimed poor'.Comment
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If the murder was made to look like the work of JTR, why did the killer mutilate more than necessary and not steal any of the organs previously reported?Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View PostComment
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The odds of two serial killers overlapping like that in a small geographical area must be remarkable, and they both had a macabre taste for deconstructing women. Also, consider the fact that the murders went cold until 1889, then we had Elizabeth Jackson, Alice McKenzie, and the Pinchin St torso within a matter of months, only for both series to ostensibly end for good thereafter.Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View PostComment
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Dissecting Jack-the-Ripper : An Anatomy of Murder in the Metropolis
by
Elizabeth Hurren
is available here:
Just prepare yourself for part 5 that suggests MJK may have been a body dealer.
Cheers, GeorgeI'm a short timer. But I can still think and have opinions. That's what I do.Comment
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amen brother. your last point is something ive banged on about forever..they both end at the same time. whats the chances of that?Originally posted by Harry D View Post
were dealing with post mortem mutilating serial killer/s here who covet body parts, not sell them."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. AbberlineComment
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But the Torso Murders started in 1873 not 1888 so if your theory is correct why weren't they Ripper style murders in the early 1870's?Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostComment
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