The Goulston Street Apron

[Michael W Richards]

With all due respect Its my belief that the Hutchinson evidence was more about framing someone specific for that murder rather than asserting any ethnicity. In that statement its the detail about the physical appearance of the man that captivated Abberline and others. Im sure they felt with that sort of specific detail the inquiries in the neighborhood should reveal some kind of leads. That he happened to look "jewish" to Hutchinson may on some level reflect his own animosity to the local immigrants.....or, it may have been to placate some of the investigators, who by that time had already publicly stated that they believed an Immigrant Jew was responsible.

Hutch just gave them what he wanted, and what they wanted to hear. Problem is...his story must not have panned out.

All the best

[RivkahChaya]

except for the fact the police at the time thought it was written by the killer and that the ripper was seen/interupted by several jewish witnesses that night.

I don't think the police at the time thought it was written by the killer. I think if the consensus among the ranking policemen was that it was, they would not have eased it. They would have covered it, stood guard until morning, and photographed it. The fact that they generally thought preventing a riot was a greater concern makes me think they didn't think the killer wrote it.

The fact that some of them copied it may mean those individual officers disagreed with the consensus, or maybe they thought even if the Ripper just stopped to read it, it was worth preserving-- or they wanted to capture the ambiance (that's not the right word, but I think you follow me) of the place where the apron was found.

if the killer thought the jews interupted him on the first victim and caused two murders that night specifically

That's what I used to think, when I accepted the premise that Stride was a victim, the Ripper was interrupted by someone he knew to be a Jew, and had to run off and find another victim-- he was seething with anger at the interruption of his first kill in a way the even killing another victim didn't satisfy, and so he took a piece of the second victim's apron, and left a note that meant "The Jews made me kill this second victim."

The more I think, the more I doubt that, though. First, I've come to question Stride as a victim of the same person who killed Eddowes, and second, it's an odd psychology that is so self-absorbed, it believes nothing is ever its fault, and yet still seeks to explain itself.

I mean, I can see a Ripper who tries to explain to police how the Jews made him kill Eddowes, if he has been caught, and is being questioned, but I can't see someone like that initiating the "It's not my fault" conversation.

I realize that a couple of them at least were strangled first

Not accusing or questioning, just using this comment as a springboard:

Were the women choked, as in, having their throats compressed so their air was cut off, or were they strangled by having the blood supply to the brain cut off? It's my understanding that the first requires a lot more force, even just to cause loss of consciousness, and takes longer, and the person is likely to fight, whereas the "blood strangle" makes a person feel woozy almost immediately, and they aren't going to fight.

As RivkahChaya points out,hat's the kind of thing dogs do ....

Not to put to fine a point on it [TMI ALERT], but the first dog I had when I was an adult, as soon as she was housebroken, and not crated when she was alone, dug out pads when I had my period, and shredded them, while I was at work. So, I learned to wrap them in newspaper, put them in a grocery bag on a shelf, and walk them out to the dumpster in front of the house before I left for work, and before I went to bed.

So, yeah, dogs do stuff like that.

When we walk them, we have to tell them all the time not to pick up trash.

[Abby Normal]

A shochet is the man who kills animals for eating according to the Jewish laws of Shechita which are extremely specific. An animal is killed this way by having all the veins of its throat cut very quickly by an extremely sharp knife whose edge is inspected very very often to make sure there are no nicks or flaws that could drag and so hurt the animal unduly. This way, according to those laws, the animal suffers an extreme and immediate drop in blood pressure that renders it unconscious and dead in milliseconds. I've always thought that whoever the Ripper was, he had either practiced as a shochet or had watched it being performed. There were kosher abattoirs and butchers all over the place then. I'm sure it would have been easy for someone to witness this, and it would be a way of killing the women very quickly with no warning. I realize that a couple of them at least were strangled first which suggests to me an apprentice or a witness. Because a fully-fledged and experienced shochet could have done it extremely quickly with no problem at all and wouldn't have needed to strangle them.

Edited to add that my problem with Hutch is that he seems to be known the the neighbourhood and he's a little tall to fit other eye-witness accounts. That having been said, I think he lies like a rug and may well have been encouraged to do so by someone who does have the right height qualification to be the Ripper. If I thought it wasn't the Ripper but the Rippers, I'd have Hutch for one of them like a shot!

A shochet is the man who kills animals for eating according to the Jewish laws of Shechita which are extremely specific. An animal is killed this way by having all the veins of its throat cut very quickly by an extremely sharp knife whose edge is inspected very very often to make sure there are no nicks or flaws that could drag and so hurt the animal unduly. This way, according to those laws, the animal suffers an extreme and immediate drop in blood pressure that renders it unconscious and dead in milliseconds. I've always thought that whoever the Ripper was, he had either practiced as a shochet or had watched it being performed. There were kosher abattoirs and butchers all over the place then. I'm sure it would have been easy for someone to witness this, and it would be a way of killing the women very quickly with no warning. I realize that a couple of them at least were strangled first which suggests to me an apprentice or a witness. Because a fully-fledged and experienced shochet could have done it extremely quickly with no problem at all and wouldn't have needed to strangle them.

Interesting idea-Kosminski perhaps?

Edited to add that my problem with Hutch is that he seems to be known the the neighbourhood and he's a little tall to fit other eye-witness accounts. That having been said, I think he lies like a rug and may well have been encouraged to do so by someone who does have the right height qualification to be the Ripper. If I thought it wasn't the Ripper but the Rippers, I'd have Hutch for one of them like a shot!

[/QUOTE]

the only info on Hutch's height we have is sarah lewis account of the waiting man who was "stout, not tall". This man was undoubtadly hutch, so he fits most of the witness accounts of "suspects" as a not very tall man. I think he lied like a rug too but for what purpose? and as we are drifting off topic Im going to stop the hutch talk here.

Interesting take on the Jewish jack the ripper theory though. Of course the GSG could be viewed as coming from the killer even if he is Jewish(Some of the higher ups beleived it was from a boastful Jew)-but would obviously need a different interpretation than the one I think it is.

[caz]

Raining Cats' Meat and Dogs

Wasn't Kosminski in trouble with the cops just for walking a dog unmuzzled?

I'm really not sure what the evidence is for all these dogs roaming freely around the East End. The one that supposedly picked up a large piece of apron in its jaws and transported it all the way to Goulston from a crime scene that had people buzzing round the immediate vicinity pretty much the moment the killer left it must have been - ooh yes, the Phantom Menace's Phantom Best Friend.

Sorry, but why are the least likely explanations so often pounced upon lately as more likely than the killer simply discarding the cloth himself, possibly to get the cops sniffing round the Model Dwellings instead of where he was getting his head down after his night's exertions?

If the message was written by the same man, it could merely have been another ruse to keep the cops there, trying to figure out if this was a clue and looking for others in and around the building. The reference to 'Juwes' in the plural would make sense in that regard, implying that the Jewish occupants might have something to hide.

While I don't agree with Mike's theory, that the killer was trying to deny Stride and blame the Jewish club members, it does seem an odd coincidence that we have one murder outside this men's club, the second close to another Jewish men's club near Mitre Square, and then the apron piece turns up in the entrance to a third building predominantly occupied by Jews, seemingly accompanied by a message referring to Jewish men and blame.

If we have learned anything at all about serial killers (and all other types of addict for that matter), it's their inability to take personal responsibility for their behaviour. There's always someone or something else to blame, from an abusive parent to an ingrowing toenail. I know a borderline alcoholic who actually blamed his ex-wife for having 'allowed' him to put all his bottles of booze in their supermarket trolley each week, yet if she ever gently suggested he should cut down for his health she would get a mouthful of abuse. I have little doubt the killer's blame game would have started - at least in his own head - almost before he left his first victim for dead. "Not my fault love. You tried to take me for thruppence for mutton dressed as lamb."

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

I think a dog wrote the message - hence the bad spelling and grammar.

[caz]

I think a dog wrote the message - hence the bad spelling and grammar.

He should have signed it, Robert.

"Martin Fido woz ere".

[Chava]

While I don't agree with Mike's theory, that the killer was trying to deny Stride and blame the Jewish club members, it does seem an odd coincidence that we have one murder outside this men's club, the second close to another Jewish men's club near Mitre Square, and then the apron piece turns up in the entrance to a third building predominantly occupied by Jews, seemingly accompanied by a message referring to Jewish men and blame.

Except at this point literally thousands of Jews were pouring into the East End every year as a result of the pogroms in Eastern Europe. There were an awful lot of Jews there with 100% concentrations in some areas. It would have been hard to live and work there without encountering Jews so it's no surprise that the Ripper ran into a couple in Berners Street--no surprise to him as well as no surprise to me. I imagine that living in somewhere like Bradford would be like that now, with high concentrations of East Asian immigrants. I'll bet there are some extremely unpleasant graffiti found in those areas from unhappy locals pissed-off for whatever reason.

RivkahChaya, Annie Chapman was supposed to have been asphyxiated before suffering the throat cut, and Stride appeared to have been as well--I note that you don't accept her as a victim and I do.

(Also, that's what my dog did too. It was gross...)

Caz, we have no reason to believe that the East End of London was different from any other area of England. I can attest that dogs were let out to run in Newcastle in the 1950s and 1960s and there were plenty of animals in the street. There were always loose dogs sniffing around the Bigg Market on Saturday mornings looking for yummy stuff. I doubt dogs were better treated 80 years before that in an area like Whitechapel.

[caz]

The canines will be blamed for something

Perhaps we need some contemporary reports of dogs roaming the streets in the middle of the night and plenty of similar graffiti, in neat, legible whole sentences, chalked on the nearby walls. I can't recall seeing any.

The Model Dwellings were brand spanking new, and I dare say the Jewish occupants were proud enough to keep their entrances relatively free of dog-chewed, foul smelling aprons and graffiti whenever such things were spotted.

Would nobody have noticed doggy teeth marks when examining the apron piece?

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Would nobody have noticed doggy teeth marks when examining the apron piece?

Conditions were so bad that even the canines were often toothless... much like a lot of the arguments on these threads recently. Gum prints maybe.

Mike

[Lechmere]

Not ludicrous

Perhaps we need some contemporary reports of dogs roaming the streets in the middle of the night and plenty of similar graffiti, in neat, legible whole sentences, chalked on the nearby walls. I can't recall seeing any.

The Model Dwellings were brand spanking new, and I dare say the Jewish occupants were proud enough to keep their entrances relatively free of dog-chewed, foul smelling aprons and graffiti whenever such things were spotted.

Would nobody have noticed doggy teeth marks when examining the apron piece?

[RivkahChaya]

Aaron Kosminski's occupation was "hairdresser," not "butcher."

Now, there's always the possibility that the Kosminski who was found by going through asylum admissions was not the "Kosminski listed as a suspect along with Druitt.

Will there still be a list some place of all the shecters working in the area then? A congregational rabbi would have had a list, along with a list of mohels, cantors, etc. and there must be some kind of list of businesses in the area. Maybe we should try to find out who all the shecters, and their apprentices in and around Whitechapel, were, after about 1880, and see if there were any Kosminskis, or similar names.

I'm really not sure what the evidence is for all these dogs roaming freely around the East End.

When I brought it up, it was just to ask whether or not there were a lot of dogs. There were a surprising number in New York City in the 1970s, until a concerted effort to clean up, and in the city where I went to college there was "catch-spay/neuter (or it may even have been vasectomize)-release" program to reduce the stray cat population, because there was such an outcry over the number that were being put down, and "spay/neuter-release" was a lot cheaper. I think they were vaccinated for rabies and distemper as well.

the killer simply discarding the cloth himself, possibly to get the cops sniffing round the Model Dwellings instead of where he was getting his head down after his night's exertions?

That makes more sense than convoluted He left it to call attention to the graffito which in turn was supposed to lead the police to blame the Jews."

I think a dog wrote the message - hence the bad spelling and grammar.

I haz nife! I kilz horz!

Would nobody have noticed doggy teeth marks when examining the apron piece?

Dogs are quite good at carrying things without getting teeth marks on them, but really, all I asked was "How common were dog?"

[Chava]

The Model Dwellings were brand spanking new, and I dare say the Jewish occupants were proud enough to keep their entrances relatively free of dog-chewed, foul smelling aprons and graffiti whenever such things were spotted.

Actually I'm sure you're right. The Jews were noted as spending their money on food and cleaning products rather than lace curtains and were looked down on by some other groups because of this. But the apron certainly and the graffito probably occurred in the small hours of the night when most Jewish balabostas--(what you call a notable housewife in Yiddish) were safely in bed and asleep so didn't have the chance to clear up the mess around the front door.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps we need some contemporary reports of dogs roaming the streets in the middle of the night and plenty of similar graffiti, in neat, legible whole sentences, chalked on the nearby walls. I can't recall seeing any.

The Model Dwellings were brand spanking new, and I dare say the Jewish occupants were proud enough to keep their entrances relatively free of dog-chewed, foul smelling aprons and graffiti whenever such things were spotted.

Would nobody have noticed doggy teeth marks when examining the apron piece?

Love,

Caz
X

Remember these were English dogs caz,they probably did not have any teeth.

[RivkahChaya]

Actually I'm sure you're right. The Jews were noted as spending their money on food and cleaning products rather than lace curtains and were looked down on by some other groups because of this. But the apron certainly and the graffito probably occurred in the small hours of the night when most Jewish balabostas--(what you call a notable housewife in Yiddish) were safely in bed and asleep so didn't have the chance to clear up the mess around the front door.

It was Shabbes, too, wasn't it? I think erasing graffiti, no matter how anti-Semitic, was muktzeh Shabbes.

[Cogidubnus]

Muzzling Order

Was not the previously referenced dog muzzling order (in response to rabies scares) passed as late as July 1889? (Think Kosminski appeared in court on related charges in December 1889)

I thought the whole reason the order was passed was BECAUSE there were so many dogs running loose at a time when rabies was a very real threat? If not, why did they bother passing it?

So, much as I hate the bloody doggy theory, it seems to remain a possibility...

All the best

Dave