The Catherine Eddows enigma

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,
I think the chances are that Eddowes did have clients, maybe not a regular arrangement but its common knowledge that sometimes in desperation women were forced into prostitution even if only the night. The possibility of her spending the last of her money on drink and not taking it home could well have been the reason that she would have looked for clients that night. That has to be one possibility and the other was that she knew the person and felt quite safe??Why else would you voluntarily enter a dark and empty square with someone?

I forgot to mention Nic that we have John Kellys testimony that states he and Kate were together virtually every night...acting as man and wife. That doesnt suggest that he did, or would have, accepted her soliciting. And we know that Kate was someone who who leaves soliciting and London behind her to make money legitimately during the summer.

Cheers Nic

[RivkahChaya]

Why would Kate go into a dark square with someone if not for prostitution purposes? There are many possibilities....

There sure are.

Something I've wondered about, which I can't answer, because I know very little about the food service business in Victorian London, but one reason a homeless person might be trolling the dark parts of a square, and around the alleys of a business area late at night today is dumpster diving-- that is, looking for thrown away food that is still edible.

Was this something anyone ever did at this time? when did public eateries typically close, and when would food be tossed out? regularly enough for Eddowes to be concerned about time? Were there eateries? I see one building labeled "REST."

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,
I think the chances are that Eddowes did have clients, maybe not a regular arrangement but its common knowledge that sometimes in desperation women were forced into prostitution even if only the night. The possibility of her spending the last of her money on drink and not taking it home could well have been the reason that she would have looked for clients that night. That has to be one possibility and the other was that she knew the person and felt quite safe??Why else would you voluntarily enter a dark and empty square with someone?

Hi Nic,

Well, first off we have no idea where Kate got money to get drunk on Saturday because she and John pawned his boots Friday night by the stub ticket date. Based on the early time she is inebriated, it being very early in the evening, one must imagine that she didnt do daytime tricks to get the money, she had her drinks bought for her.

You do seem to grasp the difference between choice and hopelessness when it comes to the issue of these women selling themselves, many dont, so good on you.

Why would Kate go into a dark square with someone if not for prostitution purposes? There are many possibilities...including she was led there by someone she thought she knew and could trust,.... she was to meet someone in the square and Sailor man was to take her to him, they were to cut through the square on their way somewhere else,..or maybe the fellow that she places her hand on his chest said he lived in the square.

I think the more interesting and profitable route to take here is why did Kate turn in the opposite direction of her mate when she left Bishopsgate Station? Even if she intended to sell herself before finding John, why wouldnt she go right, instead of left, to do so.

I think the answer is in the details of her encounter in the afternoon, and why someone would pay for her drinks in the first place if NOT for sex.

Cheers Nic

[Nic1950]

Hi all,
I think the chances are that Eddowes did have clients, maybe not a regular arrangement but its common knowledge that sometimes in desperation women were forced into prostitution even if only the night. The possibility of her spending the last of her money on drink and not taking it home could well have been the reason that she would have looked for clients that night. That has to be one possibility and the other was that she knew the person and felt quite safe??Why else would you voluntarily enter a dark and empty square with someone?

[Nic1950]

Hi all,
I think the chances are that Eddowes did have clients, maybe not a regular arrangement but its common knowledge that sometimes in desperation women were forced into prostitution even if only the night. The possibility of her spending the last of her money on drink and not taking it home could well have been the reason that she would have looked for clients that night. That has to be one possibility and the other was that she knew the person and felt quite safe??Why else would you voluntarily enter a dark and empty square with someone? The

[RivkahChaya]

Mitre Square was said to have been a repectable place. It was also said to be somewhere prostitutes took their customers. Not quite sure how those descriptions fit together, or who said so.

Maybe respectable in the sense that streetwalkers don't stroll around obviously looking for customers, and it was a known place to go if you were buying, but it was a place people went once they had hooked up, and then remained in the shadows, or had some place where they went indoors; it was "respectable" because nothing was visible.

So we have a sober woman of about 5 feet tall who, on the afternoon before she died was pennyless and looking for money. I agree that her size would make her more susceptable to booze, add to that, she may not have been drinking strong stuff for a while. But she was unconcious at 8pm. Not just drunk or tipsy, but out cold. She had to be carried by two coppers.

First, because we do know that she had some kind of kidney disease, it's at least possible that the alcohol was just one contributing factor: low blood sugar, dehydration (alcohol is a diuretic), fatigue, and who knows what else could also have contributed.

It's even possible she was exercising some form of civil disobedience-- that is, she didn't want to go to jail, and was pretending to pass out, in the hope that the police would leave her be rather than carry her to jail, or, she was just making it as difficult for them as possible.

[Steve S]

Mitre Square was said to have been a repectable place. It was also said to be somewhere prostitutes took their customers. Not quite sure how those descriptions fit together, or who said so.

Best wishes,
C4

Day-time....Night-time...?

[curious4]

Mitre Square was said to have been a repectable place. It was also said to be somewhere prostitutes took their customers. Not quite sure how those descriptions fit together, or who said so.

Best wishes,
C4

[miakaal4]

So we have a sober woman of about 5 feet tall who, on the afternoon before she died was pennyless and looking for money. I agree that her size would make her more susceptable to booze, add to that, she may not have been drinking strong stuff for a while. But she was unconcious at 8pm. Not just drunk or tipsy, but out cold. She had to be carried by two coppers.
Then what we have, if the whole tale is right, is a semi-sober woman leaving a police station (at the time Liz Stride was being killed), walking down the road and meeting a man (who has just killed), going into Mitre Square and being killed, all within half an hour and with several police on patrol seeing none of it. You couldn't make it up!

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Ive always been interested in a small detail within the fictional account of Fairy Fay, the woman no-one seems to be able to identify but was supposedly killed...(according to Reynolds News, Oct 29th, 1950),... the day after Christmas in 1887.

The article claimed that she was taking a short cut home from a Mitre Square Pub. Its claimed that the pub didnt exist, I dont know who has disproved that portion of the article, but a possible pub in Mitre Square might be interesting in the case of Kate.

Mitre Square was almost deserted, there were abandoned and unoccupied buildings within its confines. We have Mr Clapp at #5 I believe, then theres PC Pearce at #3, but I dont recall reading about any other residents of the court at the time of Kate murder.

Is it possible an illegal pub was operating in one of the unused warehouses there? Maybe the type that doesnt open regularly, to avoid legal attention, but on occasion.

Best regards

[Bridewell]

And, IIRC, the policeman told her she'd be released "When you can take care of yourself," not "When you are stone cold sober."

Hi Rivkah,

Eddowes wasn't charged, so was almost certainly treated as being simply drunk, rather than 'drunk & disorderly'. In those circumstances, normal procedure would be, as you say - and as Hutt did - to release when she was capable of looking after herself.

[RivkahChaya]

I completely agree with this miakaal4. Women have less dehydrogenase, an enzyme that breaks down alcohol in the stomach. Also, body size, prior drinking history and other factors come into play. I suspect Kate could be snockered on a couple of 4 ounce glasses of gin.

Actually, I said that bit about her being a small woman.

And, IIRC, the policeman told her she'd be released "When you can take care of yourself," not "When you are stone cold sober." So, he wasn't waiting for her to blow a 0 on the breathalyer (speaking figuratively), he was just waiting for her not to walk into posts. Also, drunks have trouble orienting themselves (another brain thing; they literally have trouble knowing whether they just made a half turn of a quarter turn), so it would be very easy for a still-pretty-drunk Eddowes to get lost walking home in the dark. Without knowing why, the policeman might know from experience that people released to soon get lost.

[Edward]

Hello All

Transporting a body (even in the middle of the night) would tend to cause more than a few problems. Slinging poor dead Catherine over your shoulder and carrying her around would of course arouse suspicion. Other means of transport (such as a cart or barrow) would be noisy and attract attention. Someone would recall hearing a cart or barrow making noise as it rolled over cobblestone streets (or in the cobbled square itself). Nobody seems to have heard any noises, not even a cry or gasp. She was most probably murdered where she was found in Mitre Square.

Nobody knows why she was in that dark corner with her murderer. A private conversation could take place on a deserted street, or in a doorway (out in the open). I don’t think that one would need a dark, secluded corner to have a private conversation.

Edward

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"It would have to be a very private conversation indeed Lynn, if the dark corner of Mitre Square was required."

Indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

The corner of Mitre square had something in common with the Nichols, and Stride murders, a pair of double wooden gates. Used by the prospective victims to get behind out of peering Copper's eyes?

Regards

Observer