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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Ok lets asssume that at some time there was an old white full apron which had been in the possesion of Eddowes being old and unwearable she cuts it into two pieces down the centre, this leaves two halves she the disposes/Uses one half, she then cuts the remaining half into two pieces retaining both, the remaining pieces would then show it had been cut down the centre and would then match the GS piece as was described and would be a piece with a string attached creating half of an apron

    As to Smith I have used this examaple to explain his so called observation, which may or may not be totally reliable bearing in mind the time it was written in 1910

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    Why is your conjecture correct? Why does the cut have to have been through the waistband as you claim?

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post
    Trevor, I remain confused by your explanation, and I really wish to understand it. You quote Smith as saying that the first discovery was that about one half of the apron was missing, then you draw a diagram to explain this, by illustrating that three quarters of the apron was missing. That is surely wrong. How could she be "apparently wearing" about one quarter of an apron?
    Ok lets asssume that at some time there was an old white full apron which had been in the possesion of Eddowes being old and unwearable she cuts it into two pieces down the centre, this leaves two halves she the disposes/Uses one half, she then cuts the remaining half into two pieces retaining both, the remaining pieces would then show it had been cut down the centre and would then match the GS piece as was described and would be a piece with a string attached creating half of an apron

    As to Smith I have used this examaple to explain his so called observation, which may or may not be totally reliable bearing in mind the time it was written in 1910

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:


  • Doctored Whatsit
    replied
    Trevor, I remain confused by your explanation, and I really wish to understand it. You quote Smith as saying that the first discovery was that about one half of the apron was missing, then you draw a diagram to explain this, by illustrating that three quarters of the apron was missing. That is surely wrong. How could she be "apparently wearing" about one quarter of an apron?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    As for the shorthand, we don't have those preserved, and having a short hand set of recordings doesn't change the fact we only have the long hand ones, and those were signed then and there. So they may have had them at one time, but we only have the ones we have. Still, good to know.

    - Jeff
    I had to wonder if this was a case of using a newspaper report to criticize newspaper reports?
    Isn't it strange how suddenly a press report can be accepted as reliable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Click image for larger version

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    Brown at the Inquest. Times

    “My attention was called to the apron – It was the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin – I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street. It is impossible to say it is human blood. I fitted the piece of apron which had a new piece of material on it which had been evidently sewn on to the piece I have. The seams of the borders of the two actually corresponding – some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion found in Goulstone Street. I believe the wounds on the face to have been done to disfigure the corpse.”


    Apologies for the very rough sketch being the wrong way up but I haven’t a clue why it happened.

    Brown specifically mentions the piece sown on which appears to mean a patch. So why can’t he mean that the patch had been cut through (broken line) and he matched the seams of the patch marked as ‘ab’ and ‘cd’ in my sketch? Note that Brown says ‘seams’ plural and not ‘seam.’


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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post

    The following is taken from a 1880's newspaper.
    Judge Lumb said that in reference to the shorthand notes alluded to,in every court in England,shorthand writers attended the court,not officially,but to take note of the cases,so that afterwards,if the notes were required,who ever wanted them would have to pay for them.
    I really wasn't aware you were so interested in court trivia.

    There is a major difference between criminal trial courts and inquest proceedings, you appear to be confusing the two.

    Research the subject a little deeper and you will find criminal courts & queens council across the land (UK) used shorthand recorders, we have examples from the Old Bailey, that is not the issue. Courts that deal with high profile & capitol crimes have the necessary expenses that local inquest courts do not have access to.

    Local inquests did not even have an assigned location they had to set up hearings in any local pub or town hall that could accommodate them. The local Coroner operated on a shoestring, expenses for the luxury of a shorthand recorder were simply not available. We even have instances where witnesses complained about not receiving their daily expenses for being summoned to court. Money was tight for the Coroner, and as you can see Langham had the Eddowes inquest recorded in longhand, and each testimony was signed by the respective witness.
    There is no shorthand version, there never was, the same goes for the Kelly inquest.

    From the press side of things, a reporter assigned by the editor to cover a court proceedings had to know shorthand as part of the requirements, only the top reporters were considered for a court assignment.


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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post
    Let me see if I follow your argument, Trevor. Smith says that about one half of the apron was missing, severed by a clean cut. That is one cut done on one occasion with a sharp knife, not several little cuts. The mortuary piece as described by Brown had a string attached, and therefore had to be a downward cut. This would leave the apron, if she had been wearing it, hanging loose, but in place, or as Collard said, "a portion of the apron deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was outside her dress". That makes sense to me. She was wearing an apron which was cut by JtR. Thank you for making that clear.
    It should also be noted that Smith was not present when the two pieces were matched
    So he could have only seen the mortuary piece and his description then fits with what was left after the two pieces of apron were later matched half an apron in length with the mortuary piece with the string attached forming the top part of the apron and the GS piece forming the lower half of the apron both making half an apron in visual form.

    Conforming that she could not have been wearing an apron but in possession of pieces on an old white apron, one piece found amongst her possessions the other found in GS

    See attached photo

    Click image for larger version

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    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    There was no piece missing because it would have been mentioned at the time that there was. And it wasn’t mentioned. So there was no missing piece.
    There had to be a piece missing when the body was stripped and the list compiled because the Gs piece had not yet been found and that was later matched to the mortuary piece !!!!!!!!!!

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    There was no piece missing because it would have been mentioned at the time that there was. And it wasn’t mentioned. So there was no missing piece.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post
    Let me see if I follow your argument, Trevor. Smith says that about one half of the apron was missing, severed by a clean cut. That is one cut done on one occasion with a sharp knife, not several little cuts. The mortuary piece as described by Brown had a string attached, and therefore had to be a downward cut. This would leave the apron, if she had been wearing it, hanging loose, but in place, or as Collard said, "a portion of the apron deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was outside her dress". That makes sense to me. She was wearing an apron which was cut by JtR. Thank you for making that clear.
    I merely offered an alternative based on Smiths comment but the point still stands that the two pieces when matched could not have made a full apron.
    i would you suggest you read my previous post in more detail before you start to be a smart arse.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:


  • Doctored Whatsit
    replied
    Let me see if I follow your argument, Trevor. Smith says that about one half of the apron was missing, severed by a clean cut. That is one cut done on one occasion with a sharp knife, not several little cuts. The mortuary piece as described by Brown had a string attached, and therefore had to be a downward cut. This would leave the apron, if she had been wearing it, hanging loose, but in place, or as Collard said, "a portion of the apron deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was outside her dress". That makes sense to me. She was wearing an apron which was cut by JtR. Thank you for making that clear.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    The pieces are testified as matching along the repair seam. That would be a unique identifier for the same garment, making it a piece of observable evidence that identifies the two pieces as coming from one and the same. Similar to how wear patterns on shoes and important with prints for identifying that a print found at a crime scene matches a suspect's shoes and not just matching shoes of the same brand and make. New shoes are harder to uniquely identify. The repair makes it a positive match, and that is testified to under oath as how the match was made.- Jeff
    There is no dispute in my opinion with regards to the matching of the two pieces, what is in dispute is whether the two pieces made up a full apron, if they did then there can be no argument that she was wearing a full apron but the fact is they didnt make up a full apron and that can be proved.

    Brown states in his official inquest testimony that the mortuary piece was a corner piece with a string attached this is contrary to what is reported in a newspaper report but if we are going to be unbiased at this point we have to accept that as being fact.

    We know that the two pieces were matched by the seams and the border but it is quite easy to see from that it was impossibe for those two pieces to have made up a full apron when matched

    The mortuary piece with a string attached must have been a piece from either the left or right corner of the apron which would have been around the waistline I dont think there can be any arguments about that.

    The GS piece was fitted as described but how it was described and fitted could only have come from the lower left or right of the apron, thus finishing up with half an apron which had been cut down the middle at some point in the past this is consistent with Major Smiths comments

    "By this time the stretcher had arrived, and when we got the body to the mortuary, the first discovery we made was that about one-half of the apron was missing. It had been severed by a clean cut'.
    - (Sir Henry Smith, From Constable to Commissioner - pg 152)

    If that was correct which way had it been severed down or across? down would fit with the matching of the apron pieces by Brown at a later stage, across would have left the remaining part of the apron still tied to the body and I would suggest cleary visible when stripped.

    So I still maintain that based on all of that she was not wearing an apron when she was killed but simply been in possession of pieces of an old white apron which had come from at some point in time in the past from a full apron.

    If that scenario is accepted then that leads us as to how one of those portions ended up in GS and who placed it there?

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk


    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    Jeff,
    The post -mortem report of Dr Brown is preserved at the Corporation of London records.One doesn't need to refer to newspapers.It is in the form of notes taken by Coroner Langham.
    The following is taken from a 1880's newspaper.
    Judge Lumb said that in reference to the shorthand notes alluded to,in every court in England,shorthand writers attended the court,not officially,but to take note of the cases,so that afterwards,if the notes were required,who ever wanted them would have to pay for them.

    In the report I mentioned above,Brown is said to have had his attention drawn to the apron pieces.and to have matched them by the hem and the seams.Now if you study that closely,you should be able to observe that it would be very difficult to prove the two pieces were from the same garment,as Trevor has repeatedly tried to explain.
    The pieces are testified as matching along the repair seam. That would be a unique identifier for the same garment, making it a piece of observable evidence that identifies the two pieces as coming from one and the same. Similar to how wear patterns on shoes and important with prints for identifying that a print found at a crime scene matches a suspect's shoes and not just matching shoes of the same brand and make. New shoes are harder to uniquely identify. The repair makes it a positive match, and that is testified to under oath as how the match was made.

    As for the shorthand, we don't have those preserved, and having a short hand set of recordings doesn't change the fact we only have the long hand ones, and those were signed then and there. So they may have had them at one time, but we only have the ones we have. Still, good to know.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • harry
    replied
    Jeff,
    The post -mortem report of Dr Brown is preserved at the Corporation of London records.One doesn't need to refer to newspapers.It is in the form of notes taken by Coroner Langham.
    The following is taken from a 1880's newspaper.
    Judge Lumb said that in reference to the shorthand notes alluded to,in every court in England,shorthand writers attended the court,not officially,but to take note of the cases,so that afterwards,if the notes were required,who ever wanted them would have to pay for them.

    In the report I mentioned above,Brown is said to have had his attention drawn to the apron pieces.and to have matched them by the hem and the seams.Now if you study that closely,you should be able to observe that it would be very difficult to prove the two pieces were from the same garment,as Trevor has repeatedly tried to explain.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Which is why Tabram wasn't, Nichols wasn't, Chapman wasn't, Stride wasn't, and Kelly wasn’t.

    - Jeff
    What Trevor actually meant was ‘every Victorian woman except Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Kelly’ of course.

    Leave a comment:

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