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Hello Jon,
Thanks for the reply. Most appreciated.
Please excuse my current posting method[ but Iam am using my old ph to post.
"Thankyou for your kind comments Phil, but,.... if I've arrived at a wrong conclusion, I'm sure it won't be the last time
"
Well, in which case you are way behind me in that particular queue!
"Agreed, she must have known him. In fact she may have even lived in F & Dean St., if not at the same address. Taking the time to look Kelly up at his address seems to be extraordinary measures for an old woman, unless she was actually living in the same vicinity. That, we'll never know."
The point here is that both Kelly and Eddowes must have known her too. And that surely would have been important for any eventual background info re Eddowes. There wasnt exactly a plethora of info about Eddowes apart from Kelly himself. See below.
"Given that the police already knew the correct time that Kate was brought into Bishopsgate, why do you think they would seek more incorrect information from the same woman?
How accurate will anything else she tells them be?"
Eddowes movements that day has holes in it. The old lady would possibly be a witness to any happenings. I compare her to the witness statements in the MJK case. We know of no newspaper comment from this old lady. She is not identified. How do we therefore know she even existed, given the time of sighting problem? You see, even IF we give Wilkinson the benefit of the doubt and say HE got the time wrong by an hour- that it should have been before 9pm not before 8pm the old lady turned up- she still wouln't be able to get to Flower and Dean St in time to tell him. Thìs is an old lady. Only SHE can confirm when she turned up at Wilkinson's Lodging House. As the time is way out and the happenings impossible, it turns the focus back on to Wilkinson's statement. If Kelly KNEW the old lady, AND where rhe worked, simple police work would clear up the problem and 3 things would happen. 1) Wilkinson's story would be confirmed/corrected. This would be registered and noted. (re statement and inquest)(It was not done) 2) the old lady could confirm the same day the ID of the victim, because according to the story she MUST have known her. 3) as said above, she could providd background movement of that evening( whetheq any man was seen in Eddowes' company when drunk immediately before arrest. Also HOW she knew Eddowes and Kelly, and for how long. All important points.
"If a witness cannot get the time right, the police might be left to assume she was either guessing, or that she is re-telling a story she was told by someone else. In either case her credibility as an eye-witness is not beyond doubt.
What is there in this woman's story that can help the police?"
Jon- this is Wilkinson's/Kelly's story- not the old lady's. There is no evidence anywhere the lady was identified, let alone interviewed. Per say, it isnt her that got the time wrong.
"The information we have is incomplete, we do not even have a complete record of all questions & answers from the Inquiry. Because our info. is not complete does not mean the police investigation was incomplete.
What we learn from an inquest is, with a few exceptions, largely pertaining to events around and leading up to the manner & cause of death.
We never learn the full extent of what the police knew. Neither do we know whether they sought her out."
Here I look at Newspaper accounts. Look at the MJK murder. The Press were getting quotes all over the shop. Every movement followed up on, before MJk's death.
Same newspapers. Yet no confirmation the old lady existed.
Given Wilkinson's later statements about the comings and goings at Flower and Dean St, and the admittance that he DIDNT have full knowledge of who went out when, or, at certain times, who entered, the focus returns to John Kelly. It questions Kelly's story. Which is in question anyway.(re Pawn ticket/Mile End).
No, the records arent complete. But that doesnt mean any tracking down of the old lady DID happen. It would be wrong to assume it did happen. The newspapers give no indication either.
thank you for your kind wishes, and my
best wishes to you too
Phil
Thanks for the reply. Most appreciated.
Please excuse my current posting method[ but Iam am using my old ph to post.
"Thankyou for your kind comments Phil, but,.... if I've arrived at a wrong conclusion, I'm sure it won't be the last time
"Well, in which case you are way behind me in that particular queue!
"Agreed, she must have known him. In fact she may have even lived in F & Dean St., if not at the same address. Taking the time to look Kelly up at his address seems to be extraordinary measures for an old woman, unless she was actually living in the same vicinity. That, we'll never know."
The point here is that both Kelly and Eddowes must have known her too. And that surely would have been important for any eventual background info re Eddowes. There wasnt exactly a plethora of info about Eddowes apart from Kelly himself. See below.
"Given that the police already knew the correct time that Kate was brought into Bishopsgate, why do you think they would seek more incorrect information from the same woman?
How accurate will anything else she tells them be?"
Eddowes movements that day has holes in it. The old lady would possibly be a witness to any happenings. I compare her to the witness statements in the MJK case. We know of no newspaper comment from this old lady. She is not identified. How do we therefore know she even existed, given the time of sighting problem? You see, even IF we give Wilkinson the benefit of the doubt and say HE got the time wrong by an hour- that it should have been before 9pm not before 8pm the old lady turned up- she still wouln't be able to get to Flower and Dean St in time to tell him. Thìs is an old lady. Only SHE can confirm when she turned up at Wilkinson's Lodging House. As the time is way out and the happenings impossible, it turns the focus back on to Wilkinson's statement. If Kelly KNEW the old lady, AND where rhe worked, simple police work would clear up the problem and 3 things would happen. 1) Wilkinson's story would be confirmed/corrected. This would be registered and noted. (re statement and inquest)(It was not done) 2) the old lady could confirm the same day the ID of the victim, because according to the story she MUST have known her. 3) as said above, she could providd background movement of that evening( whetheq any man was seen in Eddowes' company when drunk immediately before arrest. Also HOW she knew Eddowes and Kelly, and for how long. All important points.
"If a witness cannot get the time right, the police might be left to assume she was either guessing, or that she is re-telling a story she was told by someone else. In either case her credibility as an eye-witness is not beyond doubt.
What is there in this woman's story that can help the police?"
Jon- this is Wilkinson's/Kelly's story- not the old lady's. There is no evidence anywhere the lady was identified, let alone interviewed. Per say, it isnt her that got the time wrong.
"The information we have is incomplete, we do not even have a complete record of all questions & answers from the Inquiry. Because our info. is not complete does not mean the police investigation was incomplete.
What we learn from an inquest is, with a few exceptions, largely pertaining to events around and leading up to the manner & cause of death.
We never learn the full extent of what the police knew. Neither do we know whether they sought her out."
Here I look at Newspaper accounts. Look at the MJK murder. The Press were getting quotes all over the shop. Every movement followed up on, before MJk's death.
Same newspapers. Yet no confirmation the old lady existed.
Given Wilkinson's later statements about the comings and goings at Flower and Dean St, and the admittance that he DIDNT have full knowledge of who went out when, or, at certain times, who entered, the focus returns to John Kelly. It questions Kelly's story. Which is in question anyway.(re Pawn ticket/Mile End).
No, the records arent complete. But that doesnt mean any tracking down of the old lady DID happen. It would be wrong to assume it did happen. The newspapers give no indication either.
thank you for your kind wishes, and my
best wishes to you too
Phil
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