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  • Eddowes stab wounds

    There has been a lot of previous discussion on whether or not Eddowes was first stabbed several times through her clothing before the killer lifted them up above her waist which is the position they were found in.

    In an attempt to prove or disprove this issue. I again contacted Dr Biggs my forensic pathologist for his opinion. I provided him with the list of her clothing from the mortuary, along with Dr Browns inquest testimony, and a photo of the body of Eddowes after her autopsy.

    His written opinion is as follows

    " On the one hand, it seems most logical / likely that where cuts in clothing overlap skin wounds, the stab was made through the clothing (and we certainly see this sort of thing on a regular basis). On the other hand, there is nothing to stop somebody cutting clothing after it has been moved, and it simply resembling a stab through clothing.

    There is nothing specific about the way the material is cut or how it is blood-stained to assist with determining this one way or the other.

    The image of the body after post-mortem does correlate with the autopsy report to a degree, but the standard autopsy incisions will add to the overall skin defects, and after stitching back up then a lot of information is no longer apparent. It’s a shame there are no available photos from before the autopsy(?), as they would be more informative.

    Stabbing incidents are usually very dynamic affairs, and there is often considerable movement by both parties. Even if the victim was very quickly incapacitated by profuse blood loss, she is likely to have put up a fight / struggle initially (unless she was completely intoxicated, for example). An initial struggle might have resulted in stabs that missed their intended target, or stabs may not have been particularly well-aimed if there was just a general stabbing frenzy. During this time, overlapping layers of clothing may have been moving around in an unpredictable manner, etc. and so it becomes impossible to say exactly how things were arranged at the time. Matching up clothing cuts with underlying skin cuts is difficult and then trying to match up internal injuries gets even less reliable.

    Getting back to the question in hand, I would favor the cuts have been made through clothing and then the clothing having been lifted up afterwards (possibly / probably followed by further cuts to the body)… but this is based on commons sense / what we tend to see in “standard” cases, rather than any pathological observations from this particular case."


    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

  • #2
    Dr. Biggs observations and semi-conclusion makes me want to connect back to Martha Tabram. (I never know if I should say MO or 'signature,' or neither. But I think it's one of those two.)

    Comment


    • #3
      Well Trevor, it seems Dr. Biggs made observations that we can agree on. Yet, this is not how I remember you posing your argument.
      Though, it is possible there has been a bit of misinterpretation involved.

      To begin with, Eddowes clothes, mainly her skirts & underskirts were lifted up exposing the abdomen below the waist. Yet, we know from the medical evidence the killer thrust his knife into her chest underneath the breast bone. The knife was thrust through her upturned skirts, and dragged down towards the abdomen cutting through the waist bands of all the skirts, then continued to open up the abdomen.
      These cuts to the skirts were the only cuts we can line up with the wound to her body.
      The internal stab wounds to the liver were caused by this first thrust under the rib cage, then the subsequent dragging down of the knife slicing into the liver at a lower point.

      With the exception of the minor stab, or cut to the pubic area the above is the extent of the stab wounds to her body, through the clothing.
      I don't see Dr Biggs saying anything that contests what I see in the medical evidence.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        To begin with, Eddowes clothes, mainly her skirts & underskirts were lifted up exposing the abdomen below the waist.

        But we do not know at what point in the murder that occured !

        Yet, we know from the medical evidence the killer thrust his knife into her chest underneath the breast bone. The knife was thrust through her upturned skirts, and dragged down towards the abdomen cutting through the waist bands of all the skirts,

        That is not correct the cuts to the clothing went off at different directions and were in differing lengths. Had the knife been drawn down as you suggest then all the clothes would have been parted down the middle, and that is not the case

        These cuts to the skirts were the only cuts we can line up with the wound to her body.

        On this issue Dr Biggs states " Matching up clothing cuts with underlying skin cuts is difficult and then trying to match up internal injuries gets even less reliable"

        With the exception of the minor stab, or cut to the pubic area the above is the extent of the stab wounds to her body, through the clothing.
        I don't see Dr Biggs saying anything that contests what I see in the medical evidence.
        Well I am glad to see that you now accept that as i have stated all along she was stabbed through her outer clothing !

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

          To begin with, Eddowes clothes, mainly her skirts & underskirts were lifted up exposing the abdomen below the waist.

          But we do not know at what point in the murder that occured !


          Just apply some common sense. The only need to cut through her clothes is to open up the abdomen.


          Yet, we know from the medical evidence the killer thrust his knife into her chest underneath the breast bone. The knife was thrust through her upturned skirts, and dragged down towards the abdomen cutting through the waist bands of all the skirts,

          That is not correct the cuts to the clothing went off at different directions and were in differing lengths. Had the knife been drawn down as you suggest then all the clothes would have been parted down the middle, and that is not the case


          She wore four skirts, of course they are not all around her waist at the same point, one on top of the other. That would be extremely uncomfortable.
          So, as they are lifted up over her head and the knife is thrust through them into her chest the length of cut will be all different, which is precisely what we see.

          These cuts to the skirts were the only cuts we can line up with the wound to her body.

          On this issue Dr Biggs states " Matching up clothing cuts with underlying skin cuts is difficult and then trying to match up internal injuries gets even less reliable"


          Correct, so we have no issue here. Contrary to what you posted previous, we cannot line any internal wounds up with cuts to her clothing.

          With the exception of the minor stab, or cut to the pubic area the above is the extent of the stab wounds to her body, through the clothing.
          I don't see Dr Biggs saying anything that contests what I see in the medical evidence.

          Well I am glad to see that you now accept that as i have stated all along she was stabbed through her outer clothing !

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
          We've always known that, which makes me wonder why you say "we don't know at what point those cuts occurred". Of course we do.

          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            [/B]

            Just apply some common sense. The only need to cut through her clothes is to open up the abdomen.

            Wrong again, well if that were the case there would be just one clean cut from the sternum area to the lower abdomen that would then part the clothing leaving the abdomen exposed that didnt happen. The cuts in the clothing and the different angles and lengths of the cuts tell us that she was stabbed, even Dr Biggs favours this explanation.

            [/B]

            She wore four skirts, of course they are not all around her waist at the same point, one on top of the other.

            Well i dont wear skirts, but I would suggest that they would all fit around the waist ! But wait, where do you suggest she was wearing some of them, on her head !

            So, as they are lifted up over her head and the knife is thrust through them into her chest the length of cut will be all different, which is precisely what we see.
            [/FONT][/B]

            And if they were lifted above her head exposing her abdomen why would the killer need to cut through them ?
            Might I suggest you give it up this is one argument you are not going to win

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

              Might I suggest you give it up this is one argument you are not going to win

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              I'm thinking about it, I need to talk with someone who understands what 'skirts turned up from the waist' means.
              Maybe I should have a word with Dr. Biggs and he can explain it to you.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment

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