Is Eddowes demise the key?

[Henry Flower]

Ha! Simon - Strauss's Death & Tr. was an absolute favourite of the teenaged Henry Flower. I'm so glad you ... enjoyed? - it!

You'll recover. Honestly. Pills and Mantovani. Everything will be fine.

Best.

[Stephen Thomas]

DVV - my goodness you have an impressively open mind. You've listened to the apocalyptic Schumann 4 of Furtwangler, yet you can still listen to recordings of the work by other conductors!! I wish I had that breadth of spirit!

Quite so, HF

Any Furtwangler recording, however lo-fi, really gets to the heart of the piece.

[Errata]

Hi Errata


That Stride and Eddowes died from the same hand is crystal-clear.
Maybe this man wasn't the ripper (wait, Lynn, just for the sake of comparison), but that he killed both that night, no doubt.

It is only crystal clear to you that they were killed by the same hand because you cannot entertain the idea that two people might have committed a murder on the same night. Which in fact happens quite often.

So let's just say for arguments sake that Jack the Ripper was out that night, but so was some guy who was supremely pissed off at Liz Stride, and intended to kill her. Either one could have gotten to her first. My argument would be for the pissed off guy, because while both women had their throats cut, they weren't even remotely cut the same way. In a society lacking handguns, I think that is a significant detail. How would you argue that Jack the Ripper got to her first? What about her murder links her to Eddowes murder? Some pissed off guy was out there (for argument's sake), how do you know he wasn't the one who killed Stride?

Forget about the timing, forget about statistical probability of there being two killers. You get both bodies in a morgue at the same time, and no information as to who was killed when or where. What links them? If Eddowes had been killed first that night, does Stride's murder still look like the same hand? Do the wound patterns link them? Does it look to have been done with the same knife?

I submit that the only link between the two murders is that it was on the same night, they were both prostitutes (although one wasn't working) and they both had their throats cut. Which seems like a lot. But the difference between the throat cuts is as profound as the difference between a bullet in the head through a car window from about 10 feet away with 4 other bullets elsewhere in the body, and a point blank double tap to the back of the skull. Sure both were shot in the head, but not even remotely the same way. And if we were looking at these two bullet wounds, we wouldn't think they were inflicted by the same person. Even if they were two prostitutes killed on the same night.

Timing says yes they were related. Victim selection says yes. Statistics probably say yes. But the actual crimes say not so much. It's enough to legitimately question whether or not all five women were killed by the same man. The possibility really does exist, and it's not an insignificant possibility. I see the argument for Stride and Eddowes being killed by the same man. All I ask is that people respect that without corroborating physical evidence, timing isn't enough of a link for some people. I've been the victim of some spectacularly bad timing. I respect it's power

[DVV]

Remind me - when did Schumann's breakdown begin?

30 September 1853, if you ask me.
Just like the double event.
Brahms-Di Caprio-TheDevil entered their life.

[DVV]

Timing says yes they were related. Victim selection says yes. Statistics probably say yes.

Add to this "Lipski", the anar-Jewish club and the GSG, 3 weeks without murder and you'll understand how quietly I say yes.

[Errata]

Add to this "Lipski", the anar-Jewish club and the GSG, 3 weeks without murder and you'll understand how quietly I say yes.

What on earth does the anarchist club have to do with it? The murder also occurred near a watch shop. Is that pertinent as well?

The arguments for and against some antisemitic component are old and well worn, but you'd think if he was that consumed with it, he would have been killing Jewish whores.

[lynn cates]

slip

Hello Michael. Thanks. Yes, I believe your first post.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

What on earth does the anarchist club have to do with it?

It's just up to you to believe that there has been so many coincidences that night. Call it "The Night of Coincidences" if that can make you happy.

The murder also occurred near a watch shop. Is that pertinent as well?

No comment needed here.

The arguments for and against some antisemitic component are old and well worn, but you'd think if he was that consumed with it, he would have been killing Jewish whores.

I've never said so, you're just talking to yourself. And by the way, if he was "that consumed with it", why killing "Jewish whores" ? Why not men, children, and all kinds of women ?
Deflecting suspicion or taunting the police is one thing, his fantasies were another.

[Observer]

Hello David. I am suggesting that, amongst other things, that Polly and Annie's throats were cut deeper and harder that Liz's or Kate's.

Kate Eddowes throat was cut just as deep and just as hard as Nichols and Chapman. When are you going to accept this fact ? Kate Eddowes throat was cut down to the vertebrae, how deep do you consider deep? The killer of Eddowes could not have cut Kate's thoat any deeper, if he had she would have been decapitated. I'm beginning to think like Like Henry Flora, you are a wind up merchant.

[Errata]

It's just up to you to believe that there has been so many coincidences that night. Call it "The Night of Coincidences" if that can make you happy.

I actually really don't know why the Anarchist club is significant. It's obviously part of a theory I haven't run across, or perhaps glossed over while looking for something else.

[DVV]

Kate Eddowes throat was cut just as deep and just as hard as Nichols and Chapman. When are you going to accept this fact ? Kate Eddowes throat was cut down to the vertebrae, how deep do you consider deep? The killer of Eddowes could not have cut Kate's thoat any deeper, if he had she would have been decapitated. I'm beginning to think like Like Henry Flora, you are a wind up merchant.

Hi Obs, that's amazing, isn't it ?
Obvious similarities changed into significant differences.
"Seul le pire arrive" (Huysmans).

[caz]

Maybe because he wasn't thinking about trying to frame anyone else? Other people were murdered during during the autumn of 1888 and no one tried to copy Jack the Ripper to throw off suspicion. If we say that Liz Stride could not have been killed by someone other than Jack the Ripper because someone other than Jack the Ripper would have tried to frame Jack the Ripper, then we would have to conclude that Jack the Ripper could have been responsible for every other murder that autumn. Someone who had been beaten to death would have been killed by Jack the Ripper, because the murderer did not use a knife and try to frame Jack the Ripper.

I'm not saying that Liz Stride was not killed by the Ripper. I tend to think she wasn't, but clearly I don't know. I'm saying there is no obvious reason to assume she was killed by the Ripper, other than than the timing of her death. Which to me is not enough to build a theory around.

I was just observing that you, like others, said you would have had no doubts at all about Stride and Eddowes being the work of one man if only some attempt had been made to mutilate the former. In fact that would have been, for you, an 'obvious reason to assume' she was a ripper victim. So in other words, you'd have been completely fooled by a one-off killer, pissed off at Stride, if only he had thought to "rip her up a bit" like the other prostitute killer who was on the loose. Most of your post was just silly, because of course 'we' are not saying that anyone other than JtR would have tried to frame him in such a way.

Mind you, it's refreshing to hear you say that nobody tried to copy him that autumn to throw off suspicion. I guess that means you now have Eddowes and Kelly down as Jack's work, where you previously had doubts. Or do you think someone else could have killed either or both without reference to the Nichols and Chapman murders?

One reason I can't eliminate the Mitre Square killer from the Stride enquiry is that I have read about genuine double events of more recent years where the similarities between the crimes are far fewer and far weaker than we have here.

Love,

Caz
X

[Henry Flower]

Hi Caz, I get the impression that some people would then happily resort to arguing something like, "But if you ignore the coincidence of the two attacks happening on the same night, and ignore the meaningless coincidence of the anti-Semitic insults, and the locations south of the other murder sites, and the cut throats and abdominal mutilations, there is absolutely no evidence of any link between these two murders".

At which point I'd start to wonder if maybe I just wasn't sophisticated enough for this game

[Henry Flower]

PS Caz - I'd love to know more of these genuine double events.

[Monty]

Anti semetic insults?

You in on something we are not Henry?

Monty