Is Eddowes demise the key?

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

It was recently suggested to me that there seems to be a theory, given that many believe Elizabeth Stride to be a separate 'event' and the thought, in some people's minds, that "Mary Kelly"'s death way also be unconnected with the other murders in the C5, that the "key" to the door that would unlock some, if not the main part of the mystery of the Whitechapel murders lies in the demise of Catherine Eddowes. I have to say that I tend to agree with this train of thought. Are there any others who may agree, partially or entirely with this thought? (For obvious reasons, those who believe in the C5 being a one man murder spree would no doubt disagree entirely with this view.) What are your views?


Kindly

Phil

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello Phil. I tend to concur in that judgment. And, it may well be, that my "C5 friends" need not disagree. At least, they may hold both Kate and MJK equally important in unraveling events.

Believe it or not, I spend a good bit of my waking hours trying to get Kate squared away. Went over the coroner's inquest again just last night.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hello all,

It was recently suggested to me that there seems to be a theory, given that many believe Elizabeth Stride to be a separate 'event' and the thought, in some people's minds, that "Mary Kelly"'s death way also be unconnected with the other murders in the C5, that the "key" to the door that would unlock some, if not the main part of the mystery of the Whitechapel murders lies in the demise of Catherine Eddowes. I have to say that I tend to agree with this train of thought. Are there any others who may agree, partially or entirely with this thought? (For obvious reasons, those who believe in the C5 being a one man murder spree would no doubt disagree entirely with this view.) What are your views?


Kindly

Phil

Hi Phil, would you explain that theory ? I don't understand it. Is it yours ? People who push Stride out of the picture and people who exclude MJK aren't necessarily the same. Needless to say, both are wrong imo.

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello David. Permit me.

It seems obvious that Kate is the person designated in the "Dear Boss." It is also clear that a different hand slew her--when compared to Annie.

So, clear up Kate, case solv-ed'--as Clouseau says.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hello David. Permit me.

Old man, watchman, you're most welcome.

It seems obvious that Kate is the person designated in the "Dear Boss."

I wonder how many drams I'd need to agree with that ****-up, my dear.

It is also clear that a different hand slew her--when compared to Annie.

Oh yes, it's clear. "Clar coumo de bouioun de tripo", as we say in Provençal ("clear like a tripe broth").

[lynn cates]

gestalt switch

Hello David. Actually, you need to be sober.

Here's the challenge--try looking at the case through new eyes. Just for a week.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

I'd need a full barrel of Bruichladdich. Can you afford it ?

[Phil Carter]

a reply

Hello David,

If it were 'my' therory, as you ask, then I would not have wriuen that it had 'recently been suggested' to me.
The 'Dear Boss' relating to Eddowes is quite sound in view of it's position and content.
What I will do is ( if I may) point towards something related to the discussion.
Now it is the general opinion of those supporting that one killer killed all 5 women, that there are clear signs of increased mania (to use this term) culminating in the havoc in Millers Court.
However, on closer inspection there the tenable link ends in many ways.

1) there is NO viable connection between the murders of Kelly and Stride, unless one ASSUMES that Stride's killer was disturbed, and WOULD have done more ie he had not been disturbed. This is pure guesswork based on the supposition that Stride's killer was one and the same as Chapman and Nicholl's killer. There is VERY little to connect these murders other than a slashed throat, done in a secluded spot. On that basis many female slashed throat victims, attacked in a secluded spot, before and after the C5, would be included.

2) Connection between Nicholls and Kelly? Very little. Infact, I'd say that medically and opportunistically, none at all- UNLESS one accepts the thought that the killer's 'mind gave way alltogether'. Which is highly presumptive and only attached to SPECIFIC suspect theories, which in turn are non-provable.

3) likewise Eddowes and Nichols. Both done in a street. If EDDOWES' killer was the same as Nichol's, öe would have expected MORE mutilation of Nichols, as he got so much done in so little time with Eddowes, or are we to ASSUME that he may have been disturbed here as well? Thats 3 times he possibly was disturbed (or was aware of apsoaching sounds).

4) Eddowes and Stride- we all know of the pros and cons on that llnk.

Now- if looked at medically, WITHOUT presumption of öe killer, and remember the origin of the C5 concept orginated from ONE medical man- in a report to Anderson- which was questioned and ruled out by other medical men, then and now- the connections between the murders are much weaker- IGNORING the 'promotion' of just one killer at the time.

So. If there are such discrepancies- one must surely look at each murder individually- not as a collective bunch. I will say this again- there is no way ö Gods Earth The police would announce that TWO- possibly THREE killers were at large in WHITECHAPEL. that's political suicide and hìghly dangerous given the radical element and atmosphere, and very real fear of revolution. The press were baying for blood as it was! So- answer? Damage limitation.

Kindly

Phil

[Monty]

Political suicide by a non political organisation....

...Damn, must remove common sense and replace by using conjecture vielled as fact.

I'll get the hang of this hysterical baseless ripperology one day.

Yours,
The Establishment.
.....sssssh

[caz]

1) there is NO viable connection between the murders of Kelly and Stride, unless one ASSUMES that Stride's killer was disturbed, and WOULD have done more ie he had not been disturbed. This is pure guesswork based on the supposition that Stride's killer was one and the same as Chapman and Nicholl's killer. There is VERY little to connect these murders other than a slashed throat, done in a secluded spot. On that basis many female slashed throat victims, attacked in a secluded spot, before and after the C5, would be included.

Hi Phil,

How many is 'many', and how long 'before' and 'after' are we talking? Are you using actual murder statistics to support this claim, because I didn't think too many other female adults had been found in secluded spots with slashed throats, certainly not before the C5.

I will say this again- there is no way ö Gods Earth The police would announce that TWO- possibly THREE killers were at large in WHITECHAPEL. that's political suicide and hìghly dangerous given the radical element and atmosphere, and very real fear of revolution. The press were baying for blood as it was! So- answer? Damage limitation.

Alternatively, they would hardly have 'announced' that more than one killer was at large in this tiny area if they didn't know it for a fact. And they couldn't know it for a fact because none of the murders had taken place at the same time, none had been solved, and within the laws of physics and biology they could all have been the work of one man.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

hello Caz,

Sure- alternatively- you pays your money and takes your choice as to which you believe to be more viable. Ive no problem with your views- or anyones- which we are all entitled to do. We see things differently. No problem!
Internally within the police force it would have been poliltical suicide at THAT timep- and heads would have rolled. I also think that the Home Sec and possibly the Government itself would have been in trouble if this situation got out of control- and it wouldnt have taken too many sparks to ignite the keg. Histosically speaking, the Victorian era of the 1880's was one of immense revolutionary pressure,
as far as cut throats are concerned, from 1880 onwards there are a number of cases. If Jack was a C5 man only- who increased his murder lust as he went- then WHEN did he start and how? Rurely- if one is going to build a time line through the C5 In terms of rage- he wouldnt have starteed the rampage with Polly.

So discount an increasing rage time line (which is presumption) and tell me the medicak connections between Kelly and Stride for example, as above- WITHOUT presuming interruption?
A slashed throat? That means same killer does it?

Best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

I'll get the hang of this hysterical baseless ripperology one day.

.....sssssh

Hi Neil.That day has been announced long since. See Isaiah chapter 11.

[Errata]

Now, I'm one of the ones who believes that Eddowes is the key, but for different reasons. However, one of the problems we all face with this (possible) serial killer is a lack of data. To be frank, he just didn't kill enough women to establish a pattern of growth or evolution. We can say that it makes perfect sense for a guy who slashes at a woman's abdomen to end up completely emptying her and defleshing the corpse, but that's not precisely true. From looking at other serial killers, we know that most of the time that doesn't happen. So why would it happen this time, and why would it happen so quickly? We don't have the data. So we're left with broad speculation.

Personally, I think Eddowes is the key to the motive. Serial killers tend to be very ritualistic. They have a routine. Something dramatic has to happen in order for them to break the routine. The argument with Kelly is that he broke his routine because he was indoors. But what caused him to break his routine and escalate with Eddowes? Why did he cut up her face? He was pressed for time, he was not as secluded as he had been with other victims. And if popular theory is true that he was frustrated by not getting Stride, he would be more inclined to stick with his ritual that ever. His discomfort would not appear in new injuries, but in the savagery of the consistent injuries. I think he cut her face because he had to. He could not continue with his ritual with her face looking at him. So why her face? Did he know her? Did she look like someone? That's why I think she's the key. He broke his routine because of her, and that just doesn't happen unless a keen amount of stress is on the killer. Usually it means the killer thought he was about to get caught and so does not do what he ordinarily would do. It's interesting when he feels the need to add something to his routine in order to relieve stress. Like facial mutilations.

[lynn cates]

my treat--nah

Hello David. Not a question of money. But there are certain things a Scot will not do. Stand treat is one such.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

shortcut

Hello Neil.

"I'll get the hang of this hysterical baseless ripperology one day."

Take a short cut. Read a suspect book.

Cheers.
LC