"Crime Scene" Sketch.

[Michael W Richards]

Monty and Rob,

For one....we do not know why he was dismissed...why should that be an unknown? Wouldnt any prudent superior officer cite the specific reasons for that dismissal? Secondly, his timing, as I said..based on the accuracy of Lawende, ensures that he would have been looking into the square while the murderer was still over Kate. Ive been in some dark places and still able to make out other figures or people. Thirdly, he was found in the company of another officer...did officers generally stop and chat with each other while on patrol?

Im not saying he lied...Im saying that there is a real possibility he may have. To protect himself. To make himself look competent and trustworthy.

Im sure we all know that lots of people that might do that sort of thing daily, so why not a policeman?.

Cheers

[Rob Clack]

There is nothing to suggest Harvey was a liar or lax in his duties.
We have no idea why he got dismissed in 1889 and whatever it was had no bearing on what he did on the morning of the 30 September 1888.

Rob

[Monty]

What does Harveys dismissal have to do with it?

Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

I believe another possibility exists, that being that Harvey never entered the passage on that pass. It seems to me that Harvey may have been stuck with a white lie when he said he looked into the square from the passage at around 1:40ish. At the time he gave that information he had no idea that 3 wise men had likely seen Kate at around 1:35 outside the square with Sailor Man. His time almost assures us, if Lawende did see Kate, that he would have been at the entrance to the square during the murder...not after, or before.

Once stated, it couldnt very well be undone when he heard of the sighting by Lawende because it would appear he was lax in his duties and a liar at the same time. Although....he does get dismissed the following year.

Cheers

[Rob Clack]

In my mind, it is inconceivable that he saw Harvey come in and followed him out.

He could have heard his footsteps and seen his lamp.

Would you follow a policeman in the event you were attempting to escape?

Yes, we are only talking about a thirty foot passage and I am not suggesting he was right up behind Harvey, more 20 odd feet behind him.

Why? When there are two other exits and, although you can't be sure there isn't a policeman on the other side of it, there's a decent chance there isn't.

But he was sure a police man already left one entrance, so he knew he wouldn't run into one if he left via Church Passage.

My money is on the nearest exit, wouldn't you?

No, for reasons I have stated.

Rob

[Fleetwood Mac]

He didn't have to be lucky Jon. He could have seen Harvey turn right towards Aldgate and he would have done a left giving him a clear run for a couple of blocks.

Rob

In my mind, it is inconceivable that he saw Harvey come in and followed him out.

Would you follow a policeman in the event you were attempting to escape?

Why? When there are two other exits and, although you can't be sure there isn't a policeman on the other side of it, there's a decent chance there isn't.

My money is on the nearest exit, wouldn't you?

[Rob Clack]

In so far as your opinion appears to suggest that the killer was in the square when Harvey walked down Church Passage, I agree.

As far as which exit he chose, I don't see a convincing argument for either one.

- PC Harvey was leaving Church Passage but still in Duke St.
- PC Watkins was approaching the the Mitre St. exit, and
- There were supposed to have been three firemen on duty in St. James Place, from whom we have no statements.

This guy was born lucky...

Regards, Jon S.

He didn't have to be lucky Jon. He could have seen Harvey turn right towards Aldgate and he would have done a left giving him a clear run for a couple of blocks.

Rob

[Wickerman]

My opinion is that he followed Harvey out.

Rob

In so far as your opinion appears to suggest that the killer was in the square when Harvey walked down Church Passage, I agree.

As far as which exit he chose, I don't see a convincing argument for either one.

- PC Harvey was leaving Church Passage but still in Duke St.
- PC Watkins was approaching the the Mitre St. exit, and
- There were supposed to have been three firemen on duty in St. James Place, from whom we have no statements.

This guy was born lucky...

Regards, Jon S.

[Rob Clack]

And mine, Rob, is that Harvey's version of events is highly improbable.

You may be right, unfortunately like me you have no evidence to back up your opinion.

Rob

[Monty]

I'd disagree with that Gary,

I wouldn't say 'Highly'

Monty

[Garry Wroe]

My opinion is that he followed Harvey out.

And mine, Rob, is that Harvey's version of events is highly improbable.

[Garry Wroe]

If he did know they patrolled the square, then it follows he would have had information thought to be known only to the City Police at that time. When you factor in the fact that they were using left handed beats on that night....it makes one wonder what the killer might have known.

Specific knowledge wasn't a requirement, Mike. The killer almost certainly did nothing more than listen for approaching footsteps.

[Rob Clack]

Hello all,

An interesting side bit to the passages...if the Policemen, Watkins and Harvey, told the truth then the killer had only the carriageway, or the entrance from Mitre Street, to use as an exit.

Unless he knew not to go down those other 2 passageways due to the police that patrolled them,... at regular intervals, it seems an odd choice for the killer to leave via the widest and most exposed route out of the square.

If he did know they patrolled the square, then it follows he would have had information thought to be known only to the City Police at that time. When you factor in the fact that they were using left handed beats on that night....it makes one wonder what the killer might have known.

Cheers

My opinion is that he followed Harvey out.

Rob

[Michael W Richards]

No, thats not the case. That night St James Passage was not patroled down by Watkins, however you could view straight down it.

The killer had all 3 exits open to him for the majority of the period from 1.35am to 1.45am.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I thought that Watkins was responsible for checking that passage nonetheless.

As for the timing....if Lawende actually saw Kate, which most people seem to accept, then the killer would not have been leaving Mitre Square at 1:35am. He would have had to be out of the square before Watkins entered it, at around 1:43-1:44.

Lets at least give the killer a few minutes to actually kill and cut Kate up Monty.

Cheers

[Monty]

An interesting side bit to the passages...if the Policemen, Watkins and Harvey, told the truth then the killer had only the carriageway, or the entrance from Mitre Street, to use as an exit.

No, thats not the case. That night St James Passage was not patroled down by Watkins, however you could view straight down it.

The killer had all 3 exits open to him for the majority of the period from 1.35am to 1.45am.

Monty