"Crime Scene" Sketch.

[Monty]

The cottages in Mitre Street which adjoined Mitre Square did not have yards.

Collard had the neighbourhood searched immediately and the backs of the cottages too.

Watkins duty was to ensure such vacant properties were secure. He did not report they weren't.

If Eddowes was killed in a dark empty house then the killer would have had to drag her into the position she was found and then mutilate her, as there were no traces of blood anywhere other than around her body.

The above begs the question why? Why not leave her in the house?

Too convoluted and contradicts evidence provided.

Monty

[Monty]

Point of interest.

I cannot recall the exact wording but The City of London Police Regulation book states that should a Constable require assistance and no fellow PC is forthcoming that they can instruct Bootblacks or other private persons to report to the nearest Police Station and request help.

As I state, I am working from memory however I shall check my records when I have a chance.

Monty

[Cogidubnus]

The cottages in Mitre Street which adjoined Mitre Square did not have yards.

Collard had the neighbourhood searched immediately and the backs of the cottages too.

Watkins duty was to ensure such vacant properties were secure. He did not report they weren't.

Hi Monty

Thanks for that...for my part at least it was no more than a passing speculative thought...

Purely out of interest do we know what these cottages looked like? Also I note from various maps that one of them was still occupied by "Mr Taylors Shop" - again out of interest, do we know what kind of shop?

All the best

Dave

[Monty]

Picture frame maker Dave,

Check out the Mitre Square photos in the Photo archives.

Cheers
Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

"A more probable explanation is that he (the murderer, my note) had taken her into one of the two empty houses on the south side of the square, just a few feet away from where she was found, killed her there, and done the mutilations after dragging her body outside. This would have given him more time. A search was made at the back of the empty houses (replace "back yard" for "back", my ref in post) but APPARENTLY NOT INSIDE THEM. "

my emphasis.

from The Complete Jack the Ripper, Donald Rumbelow, WH Allen, 1987, revised edition, page 83.

Don't shoot the messanger Monty.
there is no evidence to say Watkins DID what you said he should have done. Mr Rumbelow says 'Apparently' not.

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Picture frame maker Dave,

Check out the Mitre Square photos in the Photo archives.

Thanks Neil...don't recall any Mitre Square photos apart from the warehouses, but that's probably my defective memory...will have a look!

Cheers

Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil

Interesting.

Probably not an original thought, but is there any chance the killer could have initially sheltered in one of the empty buildings, then maybe even escaped through it?

All the best

Dave

Hello Dave,

Imho, possible, but I only mention it as that. In other words, 4 exit possibilities, not 3.
Even if Watkins DID search the houses, which we dont know, the killer(s) could well have been long gone from the front exit the minute Watkins walked into the yard- so searcìng an empty house being the sight Watkins met.

Best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

I'm not shooting messenger Phil, just pointing out that Collard checked the rear of the cottages and that it was Watkins duty to do the same on his beat.

Now you can state there is no evidence that he did, likewise there is no evidence that he did not either. There is evidence that he was required to and as there is no record of reprimand on Watkins record for some years by 88 I'd suggest he was quite a concientious PC.

With all due respect to Don, and believe me I do have respect, I think he would be the first to state there is no evidence to support his theory.

Apparently is just that. If the houses were secure then no one had been inside them, unless it is suggested the killer had taken a hammer and a box of nails with him on his spree.

Monty

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Neil

By the look of the drawings in the Photo Archives, there's a boarded off area (a yard and a passage per the Frederick Foster plan) behind the site of the body...although it appears, from the press drawings, to be protected by palings as well as planking, could it have afforded momentary cover to a fit man during those very early minutes (perhaps just those critical few moments following the discovery, until Watkins persuaded Morris to come out and look)?

Duck, Skulk and Run...sounds like a law firm!

Dave

[Monty]

No problem Dave.

It must also be pointed out that there were no doors onto the square from thos empty cottages and Heydemanns yard gate was locked.

Thus meaning any escape through these cottages would mean either transversing a yard gate and fence with prominant spikes sticking up from it OR going through windows.

Now I ask you Phil, which is the most likely? Going through all that or leaving by 1 of the 3 exits?

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

The point is that it IS possible. You dont have to have a hammer either. One previously broken window near the door is enough. The East End were rife with old houses in varying states of disrepair. If "Jack" is so clever with his timings, to avoid the police, then roll this one along.
Mr Rumbelow also suggests the possibility of Eddowes having a pre-arranged meet up lined up. We dont KNOW where she was between 1am and 1.44am. The journey to Mitre Square takes 8 minutes according to the testimony. It had been raining. According to Mr Rumbelow again, it was a windy night. What better place to shelter from it? Especially if Mr Rumbelow's suggestion of a pre arranged meet up is correct.
And yes, I have respect for the man too. Who doesnt?

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

No problem Dave.

It must also be pointed out that there were no doors onto the square from thos empty cottages and Heydemanns yard gate was locked.

Thus meaning any escape through these cottages would mean either transversing a yard gate and fence with prominant spikes sticking up from it OR going through windows.

Now I ask you Phil, which is the most likely? Going through all that or leaving by 1 of the 3 exits?

Monty

Hello Monty,

Sure- most likely- I agree- but still possible. 4 exits. Out of the FRONT of one of the houses onto Mitre Street. With Watkins IN Mitre Square. Out through the in door.

Now I ask you something. You quote, the Star to back the reverse beat theory. The Star is widely regarded in this genre as the most untrustworthy of the daily newspapers.
Your views therefore on the Times Inquest report, re Harvey's testimony? And is there another newspaper to back up those times quoted?

many thanks

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

It must also be pointed out that there were no doors onto the square from thos empty cottages and Heydemanns yard gate was locked.

Thus meaning any escape through these cottages would mean either transversing a yard gate and fence with prominant spikes sticking up from it OR going through windows.

Hi Neil

See what you mean...although still just about feasible it looks somewhat less than likely...thanks again

Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hi Neil

See what you mean...although still just about feasible it looks somewhat less than likely...thanks again

Dave

Hello Dave,

Remember sash-cord windows? The catch turn was on the inside in the middle was it not?

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Remember sash-cord windows? The catch turn was on the inside in the middle was it not?

Yes Phil...I've still got them...and if they're as ill-maintained as mine, the catch is so bloody tight that the legendary knife blade won't shift it at all...as I know to my cost it'd be easier to break the glass...I now leave a spare key with a neighbour (in exchange for a reciprocal service!)...

Besides, assuming the premises are generally secure, unless you've recced well in advance how could you know the catch hasn't been supplemented by a nail through the sashes? And of course that in itself suggests you're well aware in advance of the rensdezvous...I'm reasonably ok with that but are you comfortable getting into Lynn territory?

On reflection I suspect Neil is probably right as regards the houses as a point of egress from the square or as a place of murder...I think the fence at the edge of the yard could still be potential short-term cover, but again, there are those bloody palings/spikes to contend with...and as Neil says, which is easiest, choice of three ways or a just about possible fourth?

All the best

Dave