Eddowes by a different hand?

[GregBaron]

Skilled with a blade......

Wow. I'm very impressed with Errata's knowlege of knifery....does this all come from Dad the doctor?

So am I correct in assuming Errata that you believe Eddowes to be the work of the same person who killed Chapman/Nichols with simply an evolving technique and with deference to different clothing, lighting, organ selection, time constraints etc...?

Outstanding. I'd love to hear more of your analysis of how Jack actually did it on Chapman and Nichols as well. I think I may not have the stomach for MJK..........


Greg

[Errata]

Wow. I'm very impressed with Errata's knowlege of knifery....does this all come from Dad the doctor?

So am I correct in assuming Errata that you believe Eddowes to be the work of the same person who killed Chapman/Nichols with simply an evolving technique and with deference to different clothing, lighting, organ selection, time constraints etc...?

Outstanding. I'd love to hear more of your analysis of how Jack actually did it on Chapman and Nichols as well. I think I may not have the stomach for MJK..........


Greg

My dad was a doctor, my mom was a nurse. My mom was also a gourmet quality cook, and I was her assistant. I started collecting knives at 13, started carving wood at 15. I worked at a haunted house for 10 years, a renaissance festival for 15, and have worked as a jeweler, a sword fighter, a cook, a carpet layer, a costumer and a body piercer. Really, I had no choice but to pick up the knife skills. But my hands shake. I have always had a fine tremor, so I HAD to break down the individual movements of any given blade in order to retain my fingers. And even with all that care, my left thigh still looks like it took a shotgun blast close up because every time I try to do fine work in my hands, I stab myself in the thigh.

And here's why (because it pertains to some of these victims):
When you start to lose control of a knife, your instinct is to ground it. Whether you are carving towards yourself, away from yourself, stabbing, sawing, whatever, when you realize you are in danger you instinctively point the knife downward as if to bury it in the ground. Doesn't always work, but it's why when people cut themselves peeling an apple or something, almost nobody manages to just take the skin off. You invariably get an almost curved cut that digs in quite deep, because you are instinctively trying to turn the knife to a "safe" position. Because your finger is not a flat plane, it cuts you deeper.

Because of this, when people pull a knife towards themselves, they start to release the pressure on the blade. It's unconscious, but it prevents the momentum of the knife from ramming the blade into your own abdomen. A starting cut requires the most force, because the momentum is necessary to break through flesh. The ending cut has the least force, because of the self defense instinct. Or if you are cutting away, it's the weakest cut because the more extended your arm is, the less pressure on the knife.

The ricochet on Eddowes had to come pretty early on in the cut. There is a lot of force behind it, and it was fast. I think Jack was grounding the knife when he cut across to her groin and down. It is a slash, and a deep one. It was not made by the point of the blade. I think he was pulling towards himself with both hands when the blade skipped, the blade started slashing toward him, and he rotated the knife causing a very deep cut in her groin, almost amputating the labia. I think he probably managed to turn the blade sufficiently for the point to hit the ground right about at his knees, which is why the last part of that slash is deeper than the beginning. He was turning the knife away from him and towards her, so the edge bit in much deeper.

I think Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were killed by the same man. I honestly have no idea about Liz Stride. I think Mary Kelly was killed by someone else, someone who was possibly very very jealous. Although I have entertained the notion that she was a victim of the Torso killer instead. But what was done to Mary Kelly was far more sexually involved than the others, and it does not make sense to me for Jack the Ripper to suddenly become very focused of external sexual characteristic when he had not before.

[Hatchett]

Hi Errata,

I have found your very well considered posts very interesting. I dont think that those points have been made before.

Have you ever thought of expanding them into an article?

Best wishes.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

I have found your very well considered posts very interesting. I dont think that those points have been made before.

Have you ever thought of expanding them into an article?

Best wishes.

Not really, no. I mean first of all knife technique analysis at this far a remove from good pictures is about as scientific as analyzing handwriting for personality traits. I can tell you what most people do, and I can tell you how I see it, explain the reasons why I think what I think, but in the end, absolutely zero proof.

So many things exist that change how someone wields a blade. Clearly the amount of clothing that the victim is wearing can change the entire approach. People tend to have a deft hand and a strong hand. Deftness usually predicts handedness. I write better with my right hand hand, therefore I am right handed. I open bottles with my left hand, because my left hand is stronger. And in me, the difference is pronounced. I cut with my right hand, and stab with my left. My right hand is just not strong enough to keep my grip and not slide down a blade when I stab something. If someone has an injury or problem with an arm joint, they will tug backward using their body weight for momentum. And ask any fencer what happens if they change the width of their hilt.

So between one murder and the next, a killer could realize that his right hand isn't strong enough, he gets a case of tennis elbow, change knives, and experience a 30 degree temperature change. Which would be equivalent to analyzing a guy's signature one day, and analyzing it again when he hasn't slept for two days, has a migraine, and broken ring finger. Might as well not bother.

[Wickerman]

My dad was a doctor, my mom was a nurse. My mom was also a gourmet quality cook, and I was her assistant. I started collecting knives at 13, started carving wood at 15.

I understand much of what you write about knife control. My first 3 years out of school were spent as a butcher's apprentice, so knife skills were learned as part of the job and what I was not taught I learned the hard way, and being right-handed my left hand still carries the scars.

I think Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were killed by the same man. I honestly have no idea about Liz Stride. I think Mary Kelly was killed by someone else, someone who was possibly very very jealous.

We appear to be very much on the same page here, though I still talk of Kelly as a Ripper victim on these boards, my own opinion is very much "on the fence" with that murder.

As I had just recently become familiar with the Jack the Ripper crimes (in 1970) when I started my apprenticeship I had a facination with the effect a knife had on tissue & skin. While learning the job I would study the impression a blade makes on muscle tissue, tendon's & organs.
This might sound a little morbid but I thought there was something to be learned about knife wounds and how you can tell what type of knife made any particular wound.
Back when I was a teenager a knife cut was just a cut, they all looked the same, superficially, but under close scrutiny there are differences in cuts that help a person determine what type of knife was used, it's length, whether it was single-sided, or double-sided, and what type of point it had. Most of the kids my age were oblivious to all this.

The knife wounds in these cases still interest me, especially those of Eddowes. And, controversially, I am not altogether convinced there was only one cut across her throat.

Regards, Jon S.

[kensei]

I haven't seen this stated yet, and it seems important to the question at hand. The intestines were lifted out and placed upon the victim's right shoulder with both Chapman and Eddowes. Surely this is at least strongly suggestive of having been done by the same person?

[lynn cates]

newspaper

Hello Kensei.

"The intestines were lifted out and placed upon the victim's right shoulder with both Chapman and Eddowes. Surely this is at least strongly suggestive of having been done by the same person?"

Indeed. But it may also suggest that Kate's assailant read the newspaper fairly carefully.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

What about the clothing

Interesting discussion about the knife cuts. I've learned things I've never even thought about before.

But what does Jack slicing through clothing on Eddowes and lifting their clothing to slice Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman say about whether it's the same hand or not?

If a person was killing just in order to mutilate, and liked the feeling of the skin and being better able to control what and where he was cutting, would he really then cut through Eddowes clothing?

For what possible reason would he cut through the clothing instead of lifting the clothing?

[lynn cates]

good question

Hello Velma.

"For what possible reason would he cut through the clothing instead of lifting the clothing?"

That's a very good question. Some things are done without thought--tying our shoes, pouring our coffee in a certain hand from a caraffe held in the other hand. Other things are done with deliberation.

IF I were trying to emulate another murder, surely I would note the large items (mutilations, intestines strewn about, throat cut, etc.) and endeavour to reproduce them.

On the other hand, I may be oblivious regarding the minutiae--number of cuts to throat, clothes cut through or no, direction of cuts, etc.

Right now, it is the minutiae in all the last 3 murders that interests me.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Get the clothes out of the way...

Great stuff all, and exactly what I was hoping for.........I've learned a great deal about knifing and never knew cutting through a person would be so difficult........I must say I've gotten images in my head that aren't very pleasant but perhaps are accurate about what especially happened to Eddowes.........anyway, a question for Errrata and others, why do you think the MJK murder any more sexual than any other? To me it's just Eddowes without time constraints.......and I wonder if Jack thought cutting threw the clothing might save time and degree of difficulty after learning on Chapman/Nichols..........?

Greg

[lynn cates]

presupposition

Hello Greg.

"I wonder if Jack thought cutting thr[ough] the clothing might save time and degree of difficulty after learning on Chapman/Nichols..........?"

That's an interesting question. Of course, it already presupposes a "Jack" who was the lone killer of all 3 ladies. Hence, the question will be easier to answer once the presupposition is established.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

One shouldn't presuppose.........

That's an interesting question. Of course, it already presupposes a "Jack" who was the lone killer of all 3 ladies. Hence, the question will be easier to answer once the presupposition is established

Thanks for correcting my

through

Lynn, you know what hurrying can sometimes do......

Indeed you are correct above and the thread was begun without that presupposition........ I wonder if the clothing itself determined the methodology in each kill? I remember someone gave an interesting description of cutting beneath the stays on Nichols.......this was most likely frustrating.......I'm still unsure how Chapman's clothing was dealt with...was it easier to lift and separate? I find the logistics fascinating but not in a morbid way I hope......


Greg

[lynn cates]

dissertation

Hello Greg. I don't think it is morbid at all. In fact, you are asking the kinds of questions that I think need to be asked. Once all these kinds of questions are answered, I think we will be much closer to the answer.

Clothing, of course, could have played a role. But, I don't recall whether Eddowes was wearing stays as Polly was.

Have you, perchance, read Gareth's dissertation on Kate's murder? He is convinced that Eddowes was killed by Annie's killer. The article is excellent and I am particularly keen on his including a possible time line. This is the sort of thing that needs to be done--even if I disagree with his conclusion.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Love to peruse...

Hi Lynn,

I'm not sure if I've read that dissertation or not off the top of my head......I briefly looked on Casebook and didn't see it........is it in a Ripperologist magazine? If you can point it out anywhere I'd love to read it....

Perhaps you're right the devil is in the details..........


Greg

[Errata]

But what does Jack slicing through clothing on Eddowes and lifting their clothing to slice Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman say about whether it's the same hand or not?

If a person was killing just in order to mutilate, and liked the feeling of the skin and being better able to control what and where he was cutting, would he really then cut through Eddowes clothing?

For what possible reason would he cut through the clothing instead of lifting the clothing?

Well, it is possible that the skirts were lifted on Nichols and Chapman because he needed to see what he was doing. I think (personally) that Chapman was posed the way she was in order for him to locate the uterus through..ahh... digital manipulation. Much akin to a gynecologist examining the cervix. He may have had more confidence by the time he got to Eddowes.

It is also possible that he simply got frustrated with the sheer number of layers Eddowes was wearing. Her coat appeared to be open in the crime scene drawings, and her skirts shoved up. But her top layers may very well have been fitted enough that he could not just shove them out of the way. It may have just seemed faster to cut through them. Her skirts were cut, but I think that was simply to create a waist opening large enough to push them over her ribcage.