"Her stomach was ripped open"

[Garza]

Can that be done in about 10 or 15 minutes, with the organ harvesting and the facial cuts?

Sorry for the late reply btw, busy life lol.

I have no experience doing this on humans but seperating the skin from muscle is not that hard on rats/mice. Make incision on the abdomen from up and down, pinch skin, stick point of knife into the pinch and slide knife up and down seperating the skin. Easily 2 mins tops, probably not even 1 min. But it would be difficult in the dark when I think about it - unless you do it for a living, day in, day out.

[sleekviper]

Back then, the only picture that someone may have had was the death pose. In most cases the body would have looked somewhat alive, but since they appear to have just used the back drop for a morgue photo it seems odd. It was important to those that lost children, and had no pictures, to have the child dressed and standing, at times with the parents, as a picture. Others did as well, but many posed death pictures feature children. Basically they appear to have wanted the added detail that the posed setting would allow over a grainy morgue shot. Be my guess.

[The Grave Maurice]

The skylight idea sounds reasonable. I would have thought that the photographer was using a flashgun that couldn't be tipped without all the powder falling out. With any luck, the acknowledged expert in this area, Robert J. McLaughlin, will come by shortly and set us straight (so to speak).

[gidgey]

Thanks for that, I suspected it was probably because its difficult to photograph them lying down. I never thought of lighting.

[ChrisGeorge]

Just wondering why they photographed her standing up like that? Its creepy!!!

Remember that for photography back in 1888 they would probably have been using available light. It's possible that they needed to pin the body against the wall in order to catch the daylight from a skylight.

Chris

[Errata]

Just wondering why they photographed her standing up like that? Its creepy!!!

Probably for identification purposes. People look different dead than they do alive, and people look different lying on their backs than when standing upright. Since we encounter most people alive and upright, and clearly they cannot change the fact that she is dead, they put them upright to mimic the conditions under which someone likely saw her.

[Steven Russell]

Possibly it was difficult to take shots from above pointing down with the cameras of the day. Just guessing though.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[gidgey]

Just wondering why they photographed her standing up like that? Its creepy!!!

[Errata]

I assumed he seperated the ectothermic layer from the mesothermic layer, pretty easy to do with a knife, then cut I or Y sections into the mesothermic layer. Good question though. Or maybe we are looking at things too medically.

Can that be done in about 10 or 15 minutes, with the organ harvesting and the facial cuts?

[Garza]

I assumed he seperated the ectothermic layer from the mesothermic layer, pretty easy to do with a knife, then cut I or Y sections into the mesothermic layer. Good question though. Or maybe we are looking at things too medically.

[Errata]

Hello Errata,
As you suggest here, I think that is very probably what accounts for any and all irregularities that might seem apparent in Kate's photos. After making his incisions, the Ripper reached in with his hands- whether gloved or not- and manually ripped the flesh apart. Not only that but he then probed about inside the body with both hands and blade for the trophies he wanted. Of course she was going to look a bit deformed after that. Personally, I have always referred to Kate immediately post-murder as looking as if she'd swallowed a live grenade.

I mean, that would account for the gapping and the slipping abdominal flesh, but do you have any idea how strong someone would have to be to tear flesh like that? It requires quite a bit more force than it would take to lift the body by that wound. He would have to stand or kneel on the body and pull upward, quite possibly tearing across the grain of the abdominal musculature. I mean it's possible. People have occasionally managed it. But if a man was likely unable to dead lift a woman by her belt, there's no way he could have ripped flesh like that. It's like tearing a phone book in half.

[kensei]

distortion there.

Is it possible he literally ripped her open? Made an incision and then ripped the flesh apart, separating it from any supportive structures? It would mean freeing the skin from the ribcage and the upper pelvis structure. It would mean detaching the skin from the diaphragm and the subcutaneous musculature. Or separating the muscles from their supportive structure. And it would have to happen from about an inch below the breasts to the top of the pubic bone.

Hello Errata,
As you suggest here, I think that is very probably what accounts for any and all irregularities that might seem apparent in Kate's photos. After making his incisions, the Ripper reached in with his hands- whether gloved or not- and manually ripped the flesh apart. Not only that but he then probed about inside the body with both hands and blade for the trophies he wanted. Of course she was going to look a bit deformed after that. Personally, I have always referred to Kate immediately post-murder as looking as if she'd swallowed a live grenade.

[smezenen]

Ok, so you got me curious and I have now spent way to long looking at them too.
We must take into account that the photo of Catherine, after being stitched up, is taken while she is in a standing position. (Look closely and you can see that her Hair is pinned to the wall) Also taking into account that after death, once Rigor has passed muscles are no longer working to give any tone. So I don’t see anything out of the ordinary with this picture. The skin should sag and childbirth / weight lose could explain the excess skin. The sketches and picture of her laying on the mortuary table do in fact look a bit off as you said and I agree that under normal conditions a wound even quit large would have a tendency to close together, it shouldn’t gape like that unless perhaps it where being propped open my the M. E. during his autopsy. That may explain the photo and the mortuary sketch but not the sketch of her body done at the crime scene which also looks off.

[Errata]

I took into account childbirth. I admit, massive weight loss did not occur to me, simply because I didn't particularly consider that her life would have supported a significant weight gain. Also people with weight loss lose a significant portion of fat all over. While some skin certainly rebounds, (and the stomach typically does after childbirth, at least mostly) the breasts and buttocks are notorious for losing a good amount of fat and losing skin elasticity. This isn't the case here.

Frankly it looks as though a bowling ball has been removed from her stomach. Even with the stitching, which should have tightened the skin to a measurable degree, there is this weird lack of support to her center left abdomen. Right of the stitches looks normal. The left doesn't.

And while one theory does not have to apply to both phenomena, neither childbirth nor weight gain would explain the gapping on the wounds, so that you would see organs. In fact loose skin should preclude it...

I don't know why it bother me so much, except the only explanation I can come up with is sort of... exclusive maybe? Limiting? Would require an ability very few people would have had? My language brain is on vacation.

[dixon9]

Also lets not forget Catherine had children,which may account for some of the excess skin etc.

Dixon9
still learning