eddowes..direction to death.

[spyglass]

Thanks Monty,
I see where your coming from now, I thought you might be going down some other avenue.

[Rubyretro]

I would wager he was just very very lucky.

I think that it's obvious that he was " very, very, lucky"....nonetheless, I liked the analogy that Bob Hinton gave in his book, with a golfer congratulated on a 'lucky' shot, who replied 'yes, and the more I practise the luckier I get...!'

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
We should not forget Bleinkensops tale[ night watchman in orange place].
'A man approached me and asked if I had seen a man and woman pass this way, I said I had seen some people but never paid attention.
It was then around 130am
Question.. could this couple have been the ones that Lawende, and CO witnessed in church passage?
Question.. could the man asking Bleinkensop have been a plain clothes officer following Eddowes who had encountered a man.?
Question..Was the man who asked the night watchman, looking for a mate, and his girl which was not Eddowes.?
Question was the man that asked the watchman, an accomplice to the killer, or even JTR, was there two of them?
Question.. Was the man that encountered Bleinkensop, nothing to do with the couple in Church passage ..not related?
I feel that Bleinkensops tale is relevant to the Eddowes case.
Regards Richard.

[Nemo]

If the Ripper manipulated Eddowes into that spot within the gates, or indeed if she led him there, then wouldn't that be the likeliest time, spot, opportunity to attack her?

Her body position suggests that she was walking away from that spot when she was attacked

Whether the Ripper attacked her from the front and pushed her backwards to the ground, or whether he grabbed her from behind and pulled her backwards, her position is a significant distance away from those gates and in the wrong orientation

I did recently speculate that an after an attack in the spot near the gates which rendered Eddowes at least unconscious, the Ripper may have dragged her by her feet to the spot where her body lay when discovered

This may have facilitated "raising her skirts" and the mutilations, but the obvious reason to do this would be to drag her to a spot that had a bit of light from the lamp round the corner near the Mitre St entrance (a risky undertaking)

However, if the crime scene sketch is accurate, Eddowes doesn't appear to be in such a spot that would be lit by the lamp

Another aspect of people's behaviour when walking is that they often cut corners and if Eddowes entered the square alone from Church Passage I think she would have cut across the centre of the square to Mitre St, rather than follow the path all the way around

A reason for her to enter the dark corner alone may have been to urinate

If She stopped at the yard gates with someone who turned out to be her killer, it seems evident to me that either no transaction took place and she walked away, or a transaction was completed and she walked away

She could of course have entered as suggested via Mitre St with all the above scenarios still being relevant

The Ripper may also have just attacked her while they were walking which generates further alternative scenarios

Overall, I think the position of the body and other circumstances point toward Eddowes being the victim of a blitz style attack while walking either from someone who she was walking with or by someone who approached her from behind

I think it is 50/50 whether she entered the square via Church Passage or Mitre Street

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
The bruise on Eddowes left hand, about the size of a sixpence[ same size as a 5p] on the fleshy part between thumb and forefinger, which was of recent origin, suggests that she had been held tightly by the hand .
As it was on the left hand, one could speculate that her killer walked on the left side of the victim, and grasped her hand with his right, if entering from Mitre street that would fit perfectly.
It is also correct in saying that if Eddowes left the passage alone , she would have taken the short route across the square[ good observation ].
If exiting with her killer he would have walked on the left side, and would have observed the warehouse door open, one then wonders, why he proceeded with the Attack .
Albeit the bruising may have occured anytime during that day , perhaps when she was raised to her feet by her arresting police officer. in Aldgate high street that evening.
But if the following oral history is correct, it is entirely possible that the killer of Eddowes, and Kelly, are one and the same.
Mrs Coxs neice was once interviewed by Dan Farson , and she included the following.
She remembers her Aunt saying that the man she saw[ described then as a gent..not Blotchy] was leading Mary down the passage quite firmly, and had Mary say 'All right my love,dont pull me along'.
And what about Berner street , and Strides attacker , attempting to pull her out of the yard.
I feel our killer lacked in patience, and was very hands on from the outset, and certainly was not the charming, cunning,clever individual that many of us believe.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Yard Gates!

Yard gates Sally, yard gates.

The indication are to me that the victims chose tbe locations.

It was common for prostitutes to use yard gates as cover. Look at Nichols, Stride and indeed Eddowes.

That, for me, is the reason for that corner.

Monty

Yes, this makes sense. Because (sorry if this is about to get a bit technical) presumably prostitute and client require a flat surface? Also handy if you're three sheets to the wind. In your average street/square, etc. your choices are going to be limited. Any old door won't do, somebody might come out of it. A yard gate, on the other hand, is probably closed, it being night-time, and the yard behind it may well be empty - so less chance of being disturbed - Voila! Very convenient!

Yes I think I do think that the victims led Jtr to their death. In the case of Eddowes, I thought perhaps there was a doubt about her habits as a prostitute - but perhaps her proximity to the yard gate in Mitre Square can help us there - on that night, at least.

[Sally]

Hi Sally,
Dont talk to me about colds...I know how you are feeling.
Most people assume tthat death to all the victims was very quick,and proberbly they didnt realise they were in danger. They never saw it coming!

I get the impression that all though not a hive of activity , there was always quite a few people moving about through the East end that time of night.
But Im no expert, I always have more questions then answers.

hope you feel better soon.

Hi Spyglass

I was just reading through this thread again and realised - yes of course, they didn't realise they were in danger - sounds obvious (probably is, and I just think it isn't because I'm befuddled by cold medication) but I suppose that perhaps they were, if not in a 'comfort zone' exactly; at least in familiar territory. Probably they had used those spots before.

And thanks, I do feel better today!

[Rubyretro]

Richard -although it's tempting to think that Jack may have grasped Kate's hand so tightly that it left a bruise, I think it far more likely that the bruise was left by the Policeman (or someone else) trying to pull her to her feet from the pavement, when she was drunk. If she was a dead weight, very unsteady, or pulling in the opposite direction, then she would have had to have had her hand grasped firmly.

I feel our killer lacked in patience, and was very hands on from the outset, and certainly was not the charming, cunning,clever individual that many of us believe.
Regards Richard.

[/QUOTE]

Jack seems to have got his victim quietly off the street as soon as possible,
and into a secluded spot for a very rapid surprise attack -to do that he must have got their confidence: too rough and they might have complained loudly and tried to pull away (and too 'flirtatious' and they might shriek with false laughter and talk back). I feel that he must have talked calmly in a low voice, and appeared mild mannered and nervously excited (infact he probably WAS nervously excited -at the prospect of murder) and anxious not to be seen -he probably made them feel as if they were in control of the 'deal' with an embarrased client, and they hurridly led him to a quiet place to put him at ease. That would surely be the best approach..

[richardnunweek]

Hello Rubyretro,
I appreciate that it is a possibility in the case of Eddowes, that she received the bruise as she was hurled to her feet when arrested.
However we should not forget, that a short time earlier that evening, Strides attacker was seen attempting to pull her out into the street.
We should also remember that it, has been claimed that Nichols may have been manhandled in Brady street, and managed to escape into Bucks row .
Also whats the betting that Chapmans killer pulled her roughly through the passage into the backyard of 29, and manhandled her so badly, that she uttered the word 'No'
That could have been similar to kellys plea[ again a passage] 'All Right luv , dont pull me along.'
So I would say there is every possibility, that our Jack, once he had obtained a 'Yes' from his victim , was in no mood to hang around.
As Hutchinson said 'He walked kind of sharply'.
Definately a smash and grap merchant...
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

However we should not forget, that a short time earlier that evening, Strides attacker was seen attempting to pull her out into the street.
We should also remember that it, has been claimed that Nichols may have been manhandled in Brady street, and managed to escape into Bucks row .
Also whats the betting that Chapmans killer pulled her roughly through the passage into the backyard of 29, and manhandled her so badly, that she uttered the word 'No'
That could have been similar to kellys plea[ again a passage] 'All Right luv , dont pull me along.'

So I would say there is every possibility, that our Jack, once he had obtained a 'Yes' from his victim , was in no mood to hang around.

BSM was seen agressing Liz -but there is no proof that BSM was Jack (and personally, I don't think that he was).

I bet that Chapman's killer DIDN'T pull her roughly through the house -he knew that the house was full of people, and I don't suppose that he wanted to be trapped in that back yard if they awoke. Cadoshe didn't say that the woman saying 'no' was in the backyard of no 29....he said that the voice could of come from any of the yards around, and that he didn't pay much attention, since he was intent on getting to work. Indeed, if you believe the
doctor's report, Chapman probably was already dead.

I don't believe that Kelly was seen with her killer -but was in bed asleep when he crept into her room.

As for Polly -I don't remember this story, but I'll go read it !

[Addy]

Hi all,

Personally I think the Ripper asked Chapman something in the garden to which she said no. After all, Cadosh also heard something fall against the fence of no 29. What else could it be than Chapman's body?

The story of Nichols being manhandled came from some people who claimed to have heard something during the night, however it was put aside as it was around midnight or something, at least not during the time Nichols was murdered.

I also think (own opinion!) that the bruise on Kate's hand was caused by the Ripper when he grabbed her at some point or, indeed, was pulling her along.

Greetings,

Addy

[Abby Normal]

Hi all,
Something has been playing on my mind lately, that being the murder position of Eddowes. Having given it some thought, I have come to the conclusion that the couple seen in the entrance of church alley were proberbly not Eddowes and JTR.
I think it has to be more likely that the Ripper led Eddowes into the square from Mitre street.
I remember as a kid, a place that was almost identicle in lay out as Mitre Sq
just a bit smaller, where us naughty lads would take naughty girls for a naughty kiss ect ( you get the picture )
Without fail it would always be in the corner in which you entered from.
I think it is human nature or even instinct to turn to the nearest corner in circumstances where you dont want to be seen.
I know the far corner was in darkness, however from experience when you actually stand in darkness, you dont feel you are protected because you see the light you are facing.
Not very scientific granted, but any thoughts on this?

Hi Spyglass
But they had just been seen by Lawende and co at that entrance to the square (Church passage). So perhaps it was natural that they go to a far corner. Also, i think it more likely that JtR let his victims lead him to the spots:
gives them false sense of security
who would know better the most "private/safe" places than the prostitutes.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;156652]Hi Spyglass

But they had just been seen by Lawende and co at that entrance to the square (Church passage).

....but what makes you so sure that the couple seen by Lawende and co, were Kate and her murderer ??

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;156663]

Hi Spyglass


....but what makes you so sure that the couple seen by Lawende and co, were Kate and her murderer ??

Hi Ruby
To be honest-I am not. If it was a legit sighting though, I was merely giving a suggestion as to why JtR and Eddowes went to an opposite location.


I do have reservations to the lawende sighting-mainly being he is the only witness to describe a fair haired suspect.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I think Ripper's Corner was the safest place for him to have done it when thinking that he's not only covered by shadow but also would be able to see from each of the entry/exit points if someone were to walk into the square, given that the light of the street(s) would come in through those passageways.

Regarding the position of the body, the killer would've straightened her out on the pavement in order to get easier access to her abdomen.

I do have reservations to the lawende sighting-mainly being he is the only witness to describe a fair haired suspect.

I think that (and the timing and the unlikelihood of yet another couple matching Eddowes' description) gives that particular sighting more credence to all the others. I just wish there were more discussion on this man as he's by far the closest suspect to have been the killer (though admittedly there wouldn't be much to talk about, given that we don't know who the hell he was ).