eddowes..direction to death.

[spyglass]

Hi all,
Something has been playing on my mind lately, that being the murder position of Eddowes. Having given it some thought, I have come to the conclusion that the couple seen in the entrance of church alley were proberbly not Eddowes and JTR.
I think it has to be more likely that the Ripper led Eddowes into the square from Mitre street.
I remember as a kid, a place that was almost identicle in lay out as Mitre Sq
just a bit smaller, where us naughty lads would take naughty girls for a naughty kiss ect ( you get the picture )
Without fail it would always be in the corner in which you entered from.
I think it is human nature or even instinct to turn to the nearest corner in circumstances where you dont want to be seen.
I know the far corner was in darkness, however from experience when you actually stand in darkness, you dont feel you are protected because you see the light you are facing.
Not very scientific granted, but any thoughts on this?

[Addy]

Hi all,

I think they went to the corner that was far off just because it was the darkest one. Both had their obvious reasons for not wanting to be seen. JtR is the most obvious but Eddowes, just released, probably didn't want to be seen, plying her trade, by the police.

From experience, Eddowes is likely to have known that although you might feel exposed facing the light, you are actually protected by the dark. And not feeling save, well, these weren't the savest places to be at any time and with the Ripper about, no one felt very save anyways. I doubt the had the same idea about feeling save or exposed as we do.

Greetings,

Addy

[spyglass]

hi,
I was mainly seeing it from the Rippers point of view, and he would have proberbly been in charge of the situation.
Ripper's corner would seem to me very open ( even in the dark ) when approaching it from church alley, where as turning into the sqaure from Mitre Street, turning right into the corner, now that makes more sense to me.
I dont know if it's fact, but apparently shops are laid out in a certain way because most people will all most always turn to the right when entering.
I am not sure if this is anything to do with most people being right handed.
And ofcourse if the Ripper was left handed then forget everything I just said.

[Sally]

Hi Spyglass

I think you have an interesting way of looking at this. There are a couple of things I wanted to ask you about - briefly, I have a disgraceful cold and am really not up to thinking today! So you'll have to let me off if what follows makes no sense

The Ripper being in control - I always think he must have given his victims (perhaps not Kelly) the impression at least that they were in control - up to the last minute. At what point do you think it became clear to them that they weren't? He must have acted very quickly to have avoided detection.

The couple seen by Lawende - if they were not the Ripper and Eddowes, that would make two couples in the vicinity? How many people were around - is it likely? Perhaps not impossible, since Lawende and his friends passed by.

That's all. I'm curious, more than anything.

Regards

Sally (sniff, sniff )

[Monty]

Yard gates Sally, yard gates.

The indication are to me that the victims chose tbe locations.

It was common for prostitutes to use yard gates as cover. Look at Nichols, Stride and indeed Eddowes.

That, for me, is the reason for that corner.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi all,
Something has been playing on my mind lately, that being the murder position of Eddowes. Having given it some thought, I have come to the conclusion that the couple seen in the entrance of church alley were proberbly not Eddowes and JTR.
I think it has to be more likely that the Ripper led Eddowes into the square from Mitre street.
I remember as a kid, a place that was almost identicle in lay out as Mitre Sq
just a bit smaller, where us naughty lads would take naughty girls for a naughty kiss ect ( you get the picture )
Without fail it would always be in the corner in which you entered from.
I think it is human nature or even instinct to turn to the nearest corner in circumstances where you dont want to be seen.
I know the far corner was in darkness, however from experience when you actually stand in darkness, you dont feel you are protected because you see the light you are facing.
Not very scientific granted, but any thoughts on this?

There may be a better argument supporting your main thrust....Spyglass...

Experience tells us that.....

JTR didn't go into the far corner with Chapman......nor with Stride.....and those are the only other two we have to go off where there was a square of sorts.....he went for the spot nearest to where he entered....

Edited to add: and that may suggest that he didn't know the area as well as many of us assume....i.e. he went with what he knew (as human beings do by instinct) and what he knew of Whitechapel was no more than where he had walked on those nights. Possible.

[spyglass]

Hi Sally,
Dont talk to me about colds...I know how you are feeling.
Most people assume tthat death to all the victims was very quick,and proberbly they didnt realise they were in danger. They never saw it coming!

I get the impression that all though not a hive of activity , there was always quite a few people moving about through the East end that time of night.
But Im no expert, I always have more questions then answers.

hope you feel better soon.

[spyglass]

Monty,
Where were there gates in Mitre square?

Fleetwoodmac,
I do sometimes get muddled in my thinking (must be my age ) and I have realised that if my thinking was correct, then Chapman should have been found on the opposite side of the door or further to that corner on the right.
I question Stride as a JTR victim anyway.
Im now trying to think if it was possible that Chapman's body was actually thrown from the window above... only joking ...or am I ?

[Monty]

Couple of feet from her head Spyglass.

Heydemanns yard, its on Fosters map.

Monty

[spyglass]

Monty,
Im guessing you are referring to the small gate in ripper corner, all though it was a very small gate and not likr the others.
But was it even there at that time?, some illustrations from that time dont show it.

[Monty]

Its was wide enough for purpose Spyglass, what do you want? King size bed?

Again, its on the map Foster made later in the day. Watkins checked it and found it locked.

Monty

[spyglass]

Monty,
Ok ok!! your right, my memory again...however am I missing something here?
I am assuming that you have a theory regarding gates, what is the significance in your view, bearing in mind two out of three were shut if you are including Stride.

[Rubyretro]

Spyglass -I'm very interested in your Post because, although I'm still open minded to it (Lawende was evidently a very careful witness, and I don't think that they all were), if I was obliged to bet money on it, then I would bet that
Jack and Kate came in from Mitre Street, as you suggest.

It does make more sense to me :

The first thing that made me think it, was Richard's excellent Post on the echoing footsteps across Mitre Square -why didn't the nightwatchman at
Kierley and Tonge, awake with his door ajar, hear anything ? Just how COULD JtR make certain that Kate wouldn't talk, or make some sort of noise crossing that Square, and why didn't he just take to the nearest corner and
kill her -as he did with Stride ?

Obviously he killed her in the darkest corner, and the obvious answer is that
he came into the Square as near as possible to that corner.

I'm very interested in the idea that people naturally turn right -as I sometimes sell on flea markets in Avignon. I have remarked before that
I am willing to turn down an emplacement on the left, because the majority of customers look at all the stalls on the right, and then turn off right at the bottom of the row and come back up the other side, without even seeing me !

So, would it have made sense for either Jack to look for Prostitutes in Mitre Street, or Kate to have gone soliciting there, rather at St Botolphs? I think that it would. If Kate was not a regular prostitute, then maybe she would have been agressed by the women at St Botolphs for trying to muscle in on 'their' pitch, and would be obliged to go just around the corner ( quite a few men coming from the jewish club might take a different route to Lawende,
and besides some men may have been ashamed to be seen picking up a prostitute in a well known spot). If Jack had left the church with a prostitute,from a busy place, the risk of witnesses was high.

Lawende could hardly identify Kate from her face -he had to identify her
from her clothes. But realistically, he could have only seen them for a fleeting moment in the dark...and the Jewish men seemed to have been more interested in the man (a potential threat to them). There is nothing to say that the couple seen by Lawende were even a prostitute and her client at all.
They did not see the couple enter Mitre square.

If, like me, you consider Hutch a suspect, then you might think that one reason that he was not worried about being identified as having been at any of the other murder spots, is because he knew that Lawende had described some other man ! (not to mention Schwartz or Long not having seen him, either).

Personally, I think it likely that he had done short jobs at Kierley and Tonge, knew the Square and the Policeman's beat, and knew that he'd likely find a prostitute near the Synagogue, but in the natural direction of Mitre Street.

[Monty]

Ive no theory Spyglass.

Then, as now, prostitutes used secluded spots. Yard entances, passageways, landings etc. Morris recalls prostitute activity in the Square as does Richardson in Hanbury Street. Theres a report of Prostitutes being cleared from Swalliw Gardens the Thursday before Coles murder. And Dutfields yard had simliar reports, albeit many months before Stride was killed.

Don Rumbelow tells a story of when he was conducting a tour in Gunthorpe Street, formally George Yard. As he is speaking he sees a prostitute and client disappear into the yard opposite. Few moments later they return.

These spots are prime for such things. Both the victim, and Jack, required such places to conduct their business.

Monty

[spyglass]

Hi Ruby,
You make some intresting and valid points,although I do wonder, if as you suggest that the killer may have known the times of the police doing their rounds, he was taking a huge risk, he would have to have his exact timing spot on with no time for error. I would wager he was just very very lucky.

And just to keep it complicated, if we are to believe Sgt Stephen Whites story, and that the police were staking out Mitre Square, the Ripper had more chance of entering the square from Mitre St undetected than any other entrance.